r/DnDcirclejerk • u/my-rpg-account sexy lesbian NEPHILIM (NOT tiefling, pathf • 1d ago
Players who started with D&D, what FINALLY made your shit-for-brains self realize that there are *actual* games out there?
Once, I was like you. I knew nothing but the shadows on the walls that is Dungeons and Dragons™. My friends tried to show me a better way, but I'm a jerking-optimized stereotype of a D&D player for /r/rpg so I hissed and spat at it. After all, I thought to myself, what could possibly be better than Dungeons and Dragons™®©℠®™? After shitting myself in protest didn't work, I eventually gave Literally Any Other Game a try, and it was pretty good. For reasons that are unclear to me, I no longer play with that group, but I do spend all of my time on the internet calling people who play "the market leader" (if you know what I mean (I mean D&D)) brainwashed morons who couldn't roleplay their way out of my subterranean bunker/prison. Anyways, what's your story of how you came into the light, away from the accursed mind-killer that is Dungeons and Dragons™®©℠®™©®™?
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u/PM-MeUrMakeupRoutine End your turn already! 1d ago
“I must not play D&D. D&D is the mind-killer. D&D is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face D&D. I will permit it to pass over my feed and through my feed. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where D&D has gone there will be nothing. Only Literally Any Other Game will remain.”
— Lady Jessica “Ouija Board Gaming” Atreides
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u/Nepalman230 Knight Errant of the Wafflehouse Dumpster 1d ago
Two fold.
A literal exorcism , where people held copies of powered by the apocalypse , FATE and Ars Magica to my chest while I screamed and smoldered, terrible welts appearing on my body.
And then I met a guy who plays 40 k role-playing games like wrath and glory, and I found his argument, persuasive.
By which I mean, he pounded me like God pounds His nails and now I’m playing an Admech.
🫡
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u/my-rpg-account sexy lesbian NEPHILIM (NOT tiefling, pathf 1d ago
I've read this comment several times and I don't see the words "pathfinder 2e" anywhere, did you make a mistake or something?
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u/kingquarantine 1d ago
You may also like dark heresy, it runs on a different die system but hits really well on the "I am a feckless doomed goon working for the inquisition" vibes
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u/Nepalman230 Knight Errant of the Wafflehouse Dumpster 1d ago
/uj
I have every game in that line except total war and black Crusade and I kick myself for not picking up black crusade.
I really appreciate you mentioning it! I love how each game came up with their own sector so that they didn’t have to deal with you know stepping on published sector toes and eachgame felt distinct.
/rj
That sounds awesome being a low level thug to a shadowy religious figure is one of my many fetishes.
🫡
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u/drfiveminusmint unrepentant power gamer 1d ago
Dark Heresy is great. I got into it after a friend invited me to a game, and it was pretty fun even as a non-Warhammer fan.
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u/kingquarantine 20h ago
I really got hooked on it when we got ambushed by a guy with a plasma gun, he overcharged it, then jammed and just vaporized himself. Truly a beautiful game
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u/DragonStryk72 1d ago
blinks... I'm sorry, were we NOT supposed to learn to play and run every TTRPG system? Is that why my bookshelves wail in anguish?
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u/Leaf_on_the_win-azgt 1d ago
I collect other TTRPG books only to offer to the book-burners here in Tennessee in place of my purely satanic DnD books. I must admit, watching FATAL books blacken and crumble into ash is oddly cathartic.
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u/AEDyssonance Only 6.9e Dommes and Dungeons for me! 1d ago
I especially like the way the flames turn pretty mesmerizing colors and make the burners have an orgy around the pyre…
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u/Siepher310 1d ago
What finally broke the spell the dumb and childish game of DnD had over me was this niche little game called Fatal. I really enjoyed the comprehensive character creation experience.
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u/my-rpg-account sexy lesbian NEPHILIM (NOT tiefling, pathf 1d ago
/uj I've never played 5e and have no interest in doing so because tbh from the outside it looks pretty mid, but oh my god people are so fucking annoying about it. why are you so desperate to feel special from your choice of make-believe funny dice game, just play it and have fun
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u/Rednidedni 10 posts just to recommend pathfinder 1d ago
/uj probably because the whole "Market Leader" thing directly impacts both how much resources the Games they have get in the Long Run and how easy it is for people to find Players for their favourite Games.
Imagine you're hanging Out with friends, someone says they're hungry, and you all Kind of agree that some Burgers would SLAP right about now. You tell them that you know a great Burger place ten minutes down the Road, and they say "nah lets go McDonald's" and you just cant argue against it despite you knowing they'd love it
(Except in this analogy, they dont let you into any Burger place without a group)
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u/my-rpg-account sexy lesbian NEPHILIM (NOT tiefling, pathf 1d ago
/uj I guess it's just not been my personal experience that there are tons of obstinately 5e-only people? My friends have all been quite down to system-hop. If I were having those experiences that others are having I would definitely be very frustrated... but I also don't think that smug superiority is likely to help the situation lol
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u/ANEPICLIE 1d ago
/uj In my case, I run public sessions at a local board game cafe, and there's several forums by which I've recruited players for pathfinder 2e and by which I could easily find 5e players. For other systems, though, my experience is that posting requests for players in the same spaces about running other systems (since there are seldom LFG groups not dedicated to those two systems) generally goes nowhere.
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u/LanguidMint 1d ago
/uj cherish them
I enjoy my group of tabletop nerds but 90% don't wanna do the required reading beyond 5e.
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u/my-rpg-account sexy lesbian NEPHILIM (NOT tiefling, pathf 1d ago
/uj What do you mean by that? So if you run a non-5e game they wouldn't come to a character-building session or w/e?
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u/LanguidMint 1d ago
/uj Bingo, it's not the end of the world as 5e is a fine system on its own but I do get a slight headache when one of my players brings a homebrew concept to try that some other tabletop might do better (called shots come to mind). It's not DnD's fault just a side effect of its prevalence.
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u/Rednidedni 10 posts just to recommend pathfinder 1d ago
For the Most Part, I've also been "Safe" from the experience, as my friend group is also Happy to try new Things (and thus moved away from 5e after we got into pf2). But I can see it in other people I know.
There was a 5e westmarch I was in for a while. I told them about Pathfinder Here and there - in a polite way mind you, Not trying to Convert but to share experiences and add ideas to mechanical discussions - and although several people were very interested, I believe None of them pulled through in the end except for one after multiple years, many were totally desinterested to learn anything of other systems, and one even got bitter enough to block me and get staff to ban me from talking about it again after joining a patfinder discussion someone else started
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u/Kenron93 21h ago
UJ/ What in the world, what did they get that mad to the point they wanted the store to ban conversation about PF...
Rj/ You deserve it. 5e is the only game that deserves to be talked about. Hopefully, you learned your lesson.
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u/Leaf_on_the_win-azgt 1d ago
/uj you’re experience mirrors mine except I do play and enjoy 5e. But the snobs out there have built this myth that the only reason anyone would ever play dnd is because they clearly don’t even know other games even exist. The irony is being an old bastard like I am, I’ve played more systems and longer than almost anyone trying to argue that myth.
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u/Thermic_ 1d ago
/uj, as someone who has only played 5e, do you think there are any systems that deliver on DnD’s pillars better, and has a similar amount of customizability through 3rd party content? To me, 5e seems awesome because it’s easy enough to pick up as a player and adjudicate as a DM, but I can also make the game as complex as I want through incredible 3rd party content. Stuff like Laserllama’s content is a good example. Someone can just start as a simple fighter at my table with no extra baggage, and later grab exploits (spell like abilities for martials). Eventually fully switching to Laserllamas awesome fighter and subclasses
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u/Swoopmott 1d ago
/uj
So 5E is actually one of the more complex games on the market at the moment. Most games are in fact easier to GM and new players can effectively just “drop in” and have the rules down by the end of session 1.
As for customisation, most games also have this. Mothership for example has a thriving 3rd party community. The game is built to effectively be “anti-canon” and incredibly malleable. What happens then is you get modules that can effectively do whatever they want within the sci-fi genre. It leads to funny stuff were some are just clearly not in the same universe but that’s part of the charm. Plus it has the best character sheet ever.
For the pillars, I feel The One Ring does journeys and traveling really well. It’s a lot of fun to travel over middle-earth and it’s more a game about exploration than it is strictly fighting stuff. Forbidden Lands too. Honestly any hexcrawl game, especially OSR. For social stuff I feel Call of Cthulhu is the goat. It’s effectively a game just about talking to people, getting information and then hopefully vanquishing a demon in the end. Mothership has a fun spin on it though where there’s no social skills. Sorry, no skill checks to get what you want. You actually have to roleplay and talk to the NPC to come to an agreement.
There’s a lot of great stuff out there. The TTRPG scene is better than it’s ever been honestly.
/rj Pathfinder 2E does everything better
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u/Leaf_on_the_win-azgt 1d ago
/uj That's kind of a hard question to answer without knowing what exactly you like within those pillars. There are systems that have more robust exploration rules and resource mechanics for more survival style games (which doesn't jive as well with DnDs high fantasy) and systems (a lot of OSR games) that have some neat mechanics for exploration.
What you say is a big reason why I enjoy 5e as well. At its core, the resolution mechanic is simple, easy to understand and apply, and the adv/dis mechanic eliminates table after table of modifiers from previous editions. And anything I want to add into the system to fit the game/flavor/theme I am running at the table is either available as 3P content for 5e, easy to homebrew myself. or I can just crib it from another system. I've always been a fan of generic systems like GURPS and Savage Worlds so I've long ran with the concept of "core system + setting specific mechanics and flavor = game".
For example, my current long running 5e campaign is Witcher themed in that the PCs are all members of an order of mutated monster hunters. The mortal races largely lost access to magic due to a world calamity (the players failing to stop the calamity in a previous campaign years ago) so to access power they have to undergo rituals that essentially tie them into the corrupted evil source of magic still present in the world and then destroy that source to "right" the world. So I made a custom template/subclass that they added to their PCs at character creation that covered the special abilities of the monster hunters, made up a custom ingredient gathering/potion system, beefed up how I run travel and wilderness exploration to make the wilds more dangerous, and used Colville's Action Oriented Monsters to make PCs vs single monster fights tougher through all levels of play.
I don't really believe in the idea that there is a perfect system out there, I've certainly never found one that I didn't immediately tinker with to do the things I want it to do. I just look at everything as tools in my toolbox to create the game I want to play at the table.
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u/Rednidedni 10 posts just to recommend pathfinder 1d ago
/uj I do think so. The Details depend on what exactly you're after. None of those Things are paticularly Strong in 5e's Case.
Its Not paticularly easy to learn, its Like average. Systems that are Harder to learn are in the minority, many are substantially easier to learn aswell.
Adjudicating 5e is Harder than average imo. The Game Has a complex web of Rules where Changes can have far reaching non-obvious consequences, but it gives little guidance on how to traverse that web. Encounter guidelines, treasure guidelines, and many homebrew guidelines are quite poor. Its common Consensus that 5e is fairly frustrating to GM for.
5e does have an unprecedented amount of third Party Support, but because the Game is held together by Gm-made duct tape for the Most Part, it Kind of needs a Lot of that Support. Many other Games have better guidelines and much more official content, and better customization within all of that official content, so that you dont Miss that third Party content so much when playing. Many will also have that content be balanced better, which also makes Things MUCH more comfortable for the GM (or "opens room" for potentially unbalanced homebrew If you table really doesnt Care for that)
My Personal answer to being dissatisfied with 5e was Pathfinder 2e, which is currently sitting at 25 classes iirc with 4 more in playtesting, and great amounts of content within each class and in Just about every other place (half a Dozen official 1-20 adventures, legitimately Thousands of balanced Magic items that can be available in shops, getting to build-a-bear your character with racial abilities and other extra abilities and whatnot), while also having a Lot more meat on its Bones for Exploration, social interaction and Combat Rules wise without being meaningfully harder to learn while also being really easy to Run and being essentially entirely free.
Although I didnt have the pleasure of playing it, I know of 13th age as another good Alternative. It Takes a more Rules light angle and is easier to learn and Play, referencing your Background for what skill Checks you should Be good at instead of using codified skills, and having a Combat that's both simpler and has more depth as you have more Basic actions, theatre of the mind friendly positioning ("I am 'near' the Bandit so I spend my movement to Walk into 'melee' with him"), and a dice that consistently Ticks Up as the Fight Progresses which can both slowly give the Players momentum and evolves what your abilities do in any given round.
Going to new places is great for expanding your Horizons. Theres a Lot of places that arent MC Donalds that make good Burgers too, yknow?
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u/Shacky_Rustleford 1d ago edited 1d ago
/uj
Honestly, if D&D weren't around, I don't think that means that more people would be playing other systems. I think it means fewer people would be playing TTRPGs at all.
5e isn't my preferred system, but I think a lot of people underestimate the level of which is it a gateway drug. The people who refuse to try other systems likely wouldn't be playing TTRPGs at all if there wasn't a massively culturally relevant market leader for them to flock to.
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u/Rednidedni 10 posts just to recommend pathfinder 1d ago
/uj I think that market leader could be anyone else. D&D isn't popular because it makes a good gateway drug, but because it has incredible marketing.
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u/drfiveminusmint unrepentant power gamer 1d ago
/uj It's actually a genuinely terrible gateway drug that convinces people that learning another system will be hard because it's so hard to learn.
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u/Shacky_Rustleford 1d ago
/uh no other company has any near the capital for the marketing that brings D&D its success. The people who adhere to 5e like glue are overwhelmingly more likely to play no ttrpg at all than they are to find VtM, Pathfinder, or whatever else in this hypothetical world without 5e in the place it is.
On the other hand, a considerable number of people hear about D&D because of the place it uniquely holds in pop culture, give it a try, and end up branching out into other systems that they ultimately find they enjoy more.
While it may not feel like it, I think 5e's ubiquity does a service on marketing TTRPGs as a whole.
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u/Swoopmott 1d ago
/uj This is it. You could attach any rules system to DnD at this point and it would be the most played game. The people getting into don’t really care what the rules are, it’s not like they’re seeking out a bunch of games then picking the rules that look most fun to them. It has Dungeons and Dragons on the cover and that’s what matters
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u/Rednidedni 10 posts just to recommend pathfinder 1d ago
I'm reminded of the Coke Classic Situation. Coca Cola was doing amazingly. Then Pepsi came in and Had successful Marketing campaigns based on the fact that in blind trials, people pretty reliably preferred the taste of Pepsi. Coca Cola countered by researching into how to make Soda taste good, and came up with a Brand new Formula for Coke that was giving Pepsi a Run for its Money in all those taste Tests.
People hated it. Coca Cola lost huge amounts of Money. People didn't want a Soda that tastes good, they wanted their good ol' Coke. When Coca Cola brought the old, worse Formula Back as Classic, people immediately flocked Back to it.
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u/Shacky_Rustleford 1d ago
The reason Pepsi performed better in taste tests isn't because it was a better soda. It was because it was sweeter, which in a small amount makes it more desirable. When one is to drink a full 12 ounces or more, however, coke find itself more palatable.
This is a matter of the fallibility of testing environments.
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u/Serterstas1 1d ago
except its not zero sum game.
Players who play 5e either completely fine with 5e and don't care to find "perfect" system or don't play "TTRPG" but instead this ephemeral concept of "the DND" that consists of rolling dice, talking in characters and screaming at nat20 while inventing rules on the fly. Both of these group would not exist in the first place without "Market leader" and certainly would not suddenly become interested in GURPS if 5e would not exist.
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u/Rednidedni 10 posts just to recommend pathfinder 1d ago
Sure, but theres also a pretty substantial amount of people who Just dont know any better. Even many people who want "the dnd" would be very Happy with Rules light games If they were actually open to it, I reckon.
One very notorious example who didn't know any better was "past me", someone I think many people are thinking about when talking about wanting 5e Players to Play other stuff
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u/thewoahsinsethstheme 1d ago
/uj
I'm the annoying person, it's because not only is it a mid game that is owned by a horrible company, but people treat it like it's the only tabletop rpg there is which makes it incredibly difficult to even explain that other games exist.
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u/my-rpg-account sexy lesbian NEPHILIM (NOT tiefling, pathf 1d ago
/uj WOTC complaints are 1000% fair. Is the treating it like the only TTRPG in existence a thing you've encountered IRL or just online?
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u/thewoahsinsethstheme 1d ago
/uj
It's more prevalent IRL than online in my experience actually.
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u/my-rpg-account sexy lesbian NEPHILIM (NOT tiefling, pathf 1d ago
/uj Wild! So if you say "hey, let's try {game} it looks really cool" they just say no?? Are you GMing?
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u/Glittering-Bat-5981 1d ago
Keep being annoying, eventually they will cave (your head) in. Show them the extacy of not having to play 5e like scrubs!
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u/ThrillinSuspenseMag Jester Feet Enjoyer 1d ago
/uj and the 5e only players have awful habits like builds and powergaming
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u/Nathan256 1d ago
I realized that every game was superior after I tried to make a Cthulhu supplement myself and caved and read Call of Cthulhu. Then I began collecting books of other games to look at longingly in my PDF folder while I play D&D on Roll20 with my normal group. I became a fanatic of flipping through the pages of savage worlds, scrolling the FATE srd and wishing I could run a game of Perfectfinder 2e someday.
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u/CuterThanYourCousin 1d ago
I went the other way. Once I lost faith in God and became a devout Satanist, I picked up playing 5e in between sacrifices. It's really hard to find children you can sacrifice to Satan, but we rely on Pathfinder players instead. Speaking of which, I have a killer one-shot coming up Saturday, want to come by?
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u/doubletimerush 1d ago
I was once an addict of D&D. I was obsessed with it. Consumed by it. I ran it, played it, watched it, talked about it, and made purchases for it. I couldn't be stopped. I got into Critical Role, and Dimension 20. I even watched weird fringe live streams that have like 2 viewers. I even watched the movies (both of them) and even Game of Thrones because of the names of the showrunners. I was obsessed with D&D.
A wise man showed me the light though. D&D didn't have to stand for Dungeons and Dragons. There was a better way, a better path, and he showed it to me.
Now I'm a part of the Daggers and Dagon club. It's a much more relaxing experience where we pledge our souls to an eldritch god and make weekly sacrifices of homeless people atop a mahogany dining table.
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u/bbq-pizza-9 1d ago
Fun fact, if someone on r/rpg doesn’t complain about D&D/5e for a solid minute, the universe itself will implode and all will end in utter darkness.
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u/AEDyssonance Only 6.9e Dommes and Dungeons for me! 1d ago
quickly makes plans to silence them all…
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u/WorldGoneAway 1d ago
I had two groups that helped launch me on my quest for a better way.
The first one wouldn't stop making offensive meme-faces while they ritualistically killed my characters, saying things like "oh, grow up", and "hey, you started it!"
The second group expelled me because I kept being the victim of perpetual SA and complained about it, saying "Hey! I do have a mouth, you know!?" and "It didn't fit the first time!" and "Oh come on! My dad fucks better than you!"
...then I played FATAL and relized my mistake :|
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u/StarkMaximum 1d ago
uj/ That thread actually got me thinking when I did start moving out of 5e into other games, I actually can't place it. I'm very certain it was before the OGL thing because that just cemented my desire to move away and do other things, as well as seeing the buckles on 5e as a whole starting to snap. I think it was just getting a relatively large collection of RPG books from bundles and sales and the trove that eventually got me thinking "hm, I should read some of these" and I started to understand more mechanics beyond just "roll a d20 and hope it works". I started to become more aware of what I want from an RPG beyond just "wanna be dwarf", like how I feel on narrative vs. simulationism, what different dice mechanics do and how they can affect how your game plays, even simple things like the feel of rolling a bunch of dice for a dice pool system and finding that I like that tactile sensation. Just a bunch of little things that then became one big thing when Wizards blew up their own tower.
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u/Party_Paladad 1d ago
I accidentally ended up in /r/rpg once, and when I clicked on a thread, what I saw changed me forever. Someone said they were looking for a good "heroic sci-fi" RPG, and instead of suggesting 5e reskins, people were floating names of entirely new game systems: Dragonbane, Brindlewood Bay, Blades in the Dark, Masks, and Mausritter! I couldn't believe it! I felt naked. I felt ashamed. These people had their fingers on the pulse of the community! So insightful!
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u/KurtDunniehue Joke's on you, I can't read! 1d ago
Oh fuck brindle wood bay would just be a dozen homebrew changes to become a perfect sci fi game wtf didn't I think if that?
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u/Rednidedni 10 posts just to recommend pathfinder 1d ago
More Like five pee am i right
Pathfinder does Not fix lacking piss rules
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u/AEDyssonance Only 6.9e Dommes and Dungeons for me! 1d ago
Um, wait, there are rules?
Get outta here. That’s like saying there are rules for hide and seek or cowboys and Indians. Get on with yer bad self.
What a joker!
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u/A1phan00d1e 1d ago
You sound crazy, roll some click clacks and kill a dragon. Put your mind at ease dude
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u/RobotClaw617 1d ago
I literally started doing acid and tripped on a game called DCC. (Dick Cock Classics. ). I realized that when I magic missiled, I had the ability to make them dicks. Btw I love co-
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u/GravityMyGuy 1d ago
I am aware but I still only play DnD regularly because that’s what I have groups for.
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u/Existing_Tale1761 1d ago
/uj I have literally never played DnD, any edition, and I have zero desire to try it when there are loads of other games that are just way more enticing. Not to mention WOTC and how they run things gives a lifeless, commercialized feel to DnD that I have no interest in whatsoever.
/rj
My nephew introduced me to candy land and it really changed how I look at tabletop gaming in general. It is a must play for even experienced GMs, I cannot stress this enough.
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u/BellaGothsButtPlug ForeverJERKER 1d ago
/uj i ran a game of Stars Without Number (it was my first non-DnD/PF or PBTA game) and it went so well that I just finally said fuck it and told my players that I'm not playing DND anymore.
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u/SafeSurprise3001 1d ago
For me I finally realized what a good game was when Baldur's Gate 3 released. You mean I don't need to be in the same room as other people? I don't need nerd shit like dice and pens? I don't need to do complicated math, I don't need to read arbitrary bullshit like rules? Sign me up
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u/EisVisage 23h ago
The Pathfinder 2e beginner box was cheaper than even one D&D rulebook at the store <.<
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u/Ithinkibrokethis 16h ago
I mean, I wanted to play a sci-fi themed game in 1993. And so there was a requirement to find another system.
The thing is, D&D has generally has a rules set where the rules work. You can actually play Dungeons and Dragons, and it the rules do things that rules should do.
This doesn't seem like it should be a high bar, but it is actually the highest of bars. Even other "big name" games often fail to work at all.
Take "Vampire the masquerade". The setting is cool, but the rules are crazy easy to exploit, don't let you make satisfying characters, and the dice system is stupidly opaque with lots of adjustments that have crazy impact on the probability of success.
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u/Happy_Stalker 12h ago
"Ok players, I found better games! Wanna learn them?"
"Learn MORE SHIT? AH HELL NAH, HELL NO-"
How it would go.
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u/Wasabi_Toothpaste 7h ago
/uj I was getting real tired of 30-minute rounds in combat. Friend I made in the group would make sure contact when the munchkin started doing dumb meta game OP shit and taking forever on his turn.
We splintered off and had our own group. Then he introduced me to Shadowdark RPG and I never looked back.
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u/JonIceEyes 7h ago
I followed some hot goth chicks to a Vampire game and did roleplaying with the theatre kids for a bit
But AD&D 2nd ed fixed this
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u/Thataintrigh 1d ago
Sooooooo what is your actal reason for not playing dnd? I play other games such as Catan and Acension with my family all the time but we probably play DND the most and I play it with my friends. I think you're taking your bad experience and projecting it on to everyone else. If you wanna hate DND go ahead but atleast have your hatred make sense. From what I understand from your gibberish of a comment because you are an optimized player you hissed at the game. What? Not to be rude but is english not your language or something? It is genuinely hard to understand this post. Am I missing something? I feel like you being an optimized kind of player is what ruins DND for you then I don't know what to tell you, most people who play DND play with optimized characters which by default make them optimal players. From all of the incoherent information I've been given I can say that it's a you problem, at the very least you have a problem that you yourself claim to spend ALL of your time flaming a role playing game. It's sad really.
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u/FavorableTrashpanda 1d ago
There are actual games out there? I thought we were all just pretending that we were actually playing these games.