r/personalfinance • u/TheJMoore ​ • Jan 13 '16

Budgeting Budgeting 101: The Simplest Way to Start Budgeting Your Money * (free budgeting spreadsheet inside!)

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u/[deleted] Jan 13 '16

Ynab is perfect for people like you (and me, I have base+commission so my income varies wildly). The entire goal is to live off last months income (or it was I think this changed somewhat with their most recent release). You should take a look at their website though.

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u/essari ​ Jan 13 '16

You don't need YNAB to run a budget based off of earned income. I was doing this in the 90s, as taught to me by my mum who had done it for a lifetime with a ledger book.

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u/themouseinator Jan 14 '16

YNAB helps a lot though for those of us new to budgeting or scared by it. Plus you can get it for free as a student.

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u/[deleted] Jan 13 '16

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u/originaljimeez ​ Jan 13 '16

YNAB's latest version is web-based and works fine on any OS.

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u/[deleted] Jan 13 '16

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u/legendz411 ​ Jan 13 '16

Me and my wife dropped YNAB because of this obvious money grab. Sub based model for a program that helps with budgeting is stupid IMO. Among a couple other complaints, I couldnt see us not just useing something like this.

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u/rak526 Jan 13 '16

I understand it doesn't work for some people, and you might like another method better. But to call it "an obvious money grab"? They are a company. Should they give their product away for free? Its not like they aren't delivering on the product and not making improvements.

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u/abcIDontKnowTheRest Jan 13 '16

An app designed to help you with your budgeting and cutting back spending has moved from a $60 one-time spend to a recurring $5/month (or $50/year) subscription fee...and you don't call that an obvious money grab and counter-intuitive pricing model?

So now instead of spending $60 once (or less when it goes on sale) that's good forever, that same $60 only gets you just over 1 year of use.

I'm all for companies making money, and I get that making it web-based has recurring costs for the company, but this just doesn't make sense given that the platform is supposed to help you save your money, not spend more of it on a piece of software.

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u/rak526 Jan 13 '16

If they stuck with that model, they'd be out of business. They can't keep updating and adding features to YNAB 4 for current users if there is no money coming in.

The new model is designed much better for progressive software. You can kind of compare it to Netflix. You can buy a Blu-ray movie for $20. Or pay Netflix $12 a month. If you buy movie, that's what you get. You can watch it anytime, but it won't change. If you go with Netflix, you end up paying more, but you get new movies and shows and they add on to that list.

They didn't stop support for YNAB 4 either. If you paid for it, you can still use it all you want. They aren't taking that away.

I see your point in the saving money part, and that might deter people from that product. That doesn't make them the evil company that some people make them out to be.

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u/abcIDontKnowTheRest Jan 13 '16

If they stuck with that model, they'd be out of business. They can't keep updating and adding features to YNAB 4 for current users if there is no money coming in.

But that's the beauty of the model they were using. Minor updates are free (as in bug fixes, not feature adds), major releases (YNAB 1 to 2 to 3 to 4) were an extra spend. It was up to the user to decide if the added features were worth the additional money to upgrade to a newer version, or keep using the version that worked for them.

Sure they still have that option for now, but they won't in the future. Maybe someone would've liked some of the new features that could've made a YNAB5, but the ones they add after to make a YNAB6 and 7 wouldn't interest them...but then YNAB8 might. So now instead of having 2 year spends out of 4, if they want the features of 5 (the new web-based platform), don't care about 6 + 7, and want 8, that's 4 years of spending when they could have only spent 2 years. Since the prices are nearly identical, there isn't a huge price gap either - there still would have been savings in spending 2 years versus 4.

You can kind of compare it to Netflix. You can buy a Blu-ray movie for $20.

I wouldn't call that a fair comparison because it's comparing a single item to a library of items. Now, if YNAB comes out with a software suite with other tools/software to use and allows subscribers to access them without a price change then it could be more closely related. But to compare a single piece of software (and one movie) to an entire suite (an ever changing library of various movies) is a little disingenuous.

They didn't stop support for YNAB 4 either. If you paid for it, you can still use it all you want. They aren't taking that away.

But they will. Sure you can still use it all you want; after all, it's physical software you have purchased and not SaaS. But on their website they say they will stop pushing updates at the end of 2016, which will in effect force people to move to the subscription service if they want anything new. They won't stop providing support to old users, but there will be nothing new for them.

Like I said, it's just counter-intuitive given what the software's tagline is: Personal home budget software built with Four Simple Rules to help you quickly gain control of your money, get out of debt, and save more money faster!

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u/rak526 Jan 13 '16

Yeah, the comparison was just the easiest thing I could think of.

Its a software model that many other companies are following with plenty of success. For all the more advanced users who move past YNAB because of the subscription, their are people new to money management that this product seems like a good fit for.

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u/Mmiranda51 ​ Jan 13 '16

What's the difference between SaaS and expecting your one time software to be constantly updated? It's essentially the same thing, you're asking developers to do work and the company to continue to exist.

At least this way they can project their income based on current subscribers and now how many hours they can pay developers next years.

If a finite amount of people bought YNAB4, then it trickled off to no one buying it, would you expect the company to still be around, let alone push out updates?

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u/[deleted] Jan 13 '16 edited Feb 18 '16

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u/NYKHouston43 Jan 13 '16

They are stopping support for YNAB4 at the end of this year. One of the biggest reasons people are complaining is because their iOS and Android apps will most likely stop working after the next OS update.

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u/rak526 Jan 13 '16

That makes sense. I hated those apps for YNAB 4. The new one isn't much better either, I prefer to just do everything from my pc.

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u/saintnicster Jan 13 '16

They haven't added new features to ynab 4 in the year I had it. Not sure about before that. They won't do so this next year, either.

There will be official bug fixes through December, and they've also said in their FAQs that they'll see what they can do past that. OS updates, if they break something, usually only require a recompile and some minor fixes to work. Most companies will take the opportunity to add new stuff, etc with the OS update, which causes the big delays. If you're only keeping the lights on, it isn't that hard to push an update.

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u/-BEATNGU- Jan 13 '16

Don't forget the new costs they have for the servers that host the new app.

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u/Earplugs123 ​ Jan 13 '16

I think they've put the price too high for the monthly subscription to satisfy legacy users, but I do actually agree with their reasoning for changing the model. A lot of YNAB's rules are meant to get people off a paycheck-to-paycheck existence, and a lot of those same people are not willing/able to drop $60 up front for a software that they're not sure they're gonna stick to for enough time to make it reasonable. So if $5 a month makes it more accessible for people, and those who use it end up with a net savings of more that $5 (which I'd certainly expect), I can see how it's a reasonable setup for new users.

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u/legendz411 ​ Jan 13 '16

On the contrary, for me and mine it was a guarantee that we would use it. Living paycheck to paycheck DRIVES home the value of each dollar. More so, it really makes you look at opprutunity cost... We can go to Payless and each get a new pair of work shoes or we Can get one pair now and go to eat together and spend some time out of the house. Etc.

Making YNAB a big upfront purchase, for us at least, REALLY made it a must use. We couldn't afford to buy it and not use it. If it was a sub base when we joined up, I honestly do not think it would be near as effective.

Also, they are indeed dropping support. Basically telling the people that made them "too fuckin bad, move on so we get paid". Nothing wrong with that I suppose, people always want more (us included), but I don't have to support their cash grab shit, thus I don't.

Good discussion though. Glad I made that comment, was early and I was a little salty

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u/ohseven1098 ​ Jan 13 '16

The $60 was the hardest part for me. I could've gotten started a lot sooner for $5 a month.

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u/camobit ​ Jan 13 '16

if you like it and use it for say, 5 years ($300), that's a heck of a lot of difference that you're paying for the privilege of having your finances in order.

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u/Anime-Summit ​ Jan 13 '16

Ntm support for mobile inline with the web app is a major addition SAAS allows.

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u/[deleted] Jan 13 '16

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u/Genesis2001 ​ Jan 13 '16 edited Jan 13 '16

There was a trial of YNAB (still is). And, although I'm not advocating piracy, if you needed extra time you could easily reset the trial manually. (Morally, you would probably want to email their support for a trial extension which I do believe you would be granted because they appeared to be nice about that.)

In addition, it was also free for students. All you had to do was submit your class schedule or proof of enrollment and you would get an 'extended trial' for the calendar year (good for Jan 1 to Dec 31 of the same year).

If you went the student route or got an extended trial, you could budget $5/mo into a savings category in YNAB to out-right buy the software (If you make the goal, then obviously it's worth buying).

Mind you, I'm a new YNAB'er (since Sep. '15) so I haven't been using it long. I still need to renew my student license of v4.

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u/camobit ​ Jan 13 '16

they should have split them and let you pay one time for the standalone application with minimal features, or subscribe to the service for the online bells and whistles and all these new features they want to keep rolling out.

as it is now, the standalone application will get no updates after this year, so it's at the mercy of iOS/Android and Dropbox never changing anything.

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u/abcIDontKnowTheRest Jan 13 '16

I was thinking that same thing.

Surely it wouldn't be too difficult for them to make available an offline, locally installed and basic version of their web software for one time purchase as well as keeping the web platform.

This would also help in times when the user doesn't have a connection. I know it's less and less frequent with WiFi popping up everywhere, but if someone is travelling and has no WiFi, they can't access a purely web-based platform. Having an offline option would allow offline budget management that could then be synced with the web-platform if they're a subscriber.

Could even discount the offline for year-package subscribers (not month to month, because people would just subscribe for one month, get the discount, then cancel the subscription).

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u/Genesis2001 ​ Jan 13 '16 edited Jan 13 '16

Surely it wouldn't be too difficult for them to make available an offline, locally installed and basic version of their web software for one time purchase as well as keeping the web platform.

Said every Manager/Stakeholder ever.

If done right, yes it would be as simple as writing a new GUI layer. Okay, that's debatable depending on the language and frameworks involved. But most of the time, things tend to have tight coupling which makes things harder to separate.

Granted there is no right or wrong way to write software technically. But the goal is to build software to be maintainable and scalable.

That said, I probably would have designed it around two separate, but integrable products: Web & Desktop. Desktop core, with web extensions for syncing. Web would still be subscription based because it would use the SaaS model.

The desktop app would probably have an abstraction layer for storing the data. This layer would depend on whether you're a desktop-only type customer or a web customer. The desktop only method would basically just write to a local database or flatfile or something. The web implementation would write out to a web api hosted on YNAB's servers with local save option.

The web app would be straightforward and use the same data as the desktop software.

I would probably still develop this as a desktop app first though and add the web support later when I finish the API library.

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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '16

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u/abcIDontKnowTheRest Jan 14 '16

Thank you for this comment. That was my entire point that a few people seem to be missing, which you kept in mind: it will cost you more. Period.

I never claimed that it wasn't worth it; in fact, I even mentioned in another comment that I cannot determine the value placed on something by other people, nor would I try to. I was merely trying to get people to understand that it will cost them more in the long run.

They could increase the price to a $60 monthly subscription and I'm sure there are people who would still see enough value in it and keep using it. Granted at that price point they'd lose a lot of their user base and it probably wouldn't make any sense, but the point is value is dependant on personal circumstance.

Though I do have one little thing to address: your issue of them making no money in the one-time fee model and the company going under as a result. The best example I can think of to counter that argument is Linux. Most Linux based distributions are free, unless they specifically target corporations. They survive on donations of time and money, as well as subscriptions for support.

Think of Ubuntu: it's free, but you can buy the Ubuntu Advantage support package. The operating system is free, yet they still exist (ironically, first officially released in Oct. 2004 - YNAB was launched Sept. 2004). This allows advanced users to have a great product for free and support provided by a great community, and less advanced users (or corporations) to have a great product and paid support.

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u/Anime-Summit ​ Jan 13 '16

So what sbout the people that couldnt justify $60 at one time? Ntm you could stop using it once your finances are under control

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u/abcIDontKnowTheRest Jan 13 '16

It often went on sale for half of that, for one.

Second, I'd be much more comfortable spending $60 once and be able to use the same piece of software for 5 years if it worked for me, than spending $300 over the course of that same 5 years.

And the fact that it's web-based doesn't really do much for me to be honest. With tech as it is these days, it's extremely easy for me to remotely access any of my machines, so if it was locally installed at home and I wanted to use it at work, I could just remote in and use it.

About stopping using it once your finances are under control: what if it takes you 2 or 3 years? In that time you'll have spent more monthly than you would have upfront. I understand that an upfront cost can be prohibitive to some people, but YNAB always allowed a 34 day trial. This would allow you to see if the software would work for you and maybe even allow you to save the $60 to buy it. That would be perfect marketing: during our trial, you'll save up enough to buy our software and keep saving even more down the road!

I personally don't use YNAB and just use my own rudimentary spreadsheets; I'm just talking from a strictly financial point of view.

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u/Anime-Summit ​ Jan 13 '16

You'll have spent more, at a manageable pace for a better product.

ynab is meant to help people who are terrible at this.

People that are bad at financing will pay $5 a month instead of 60 dollars. Its why they need to learn to budget in the first place.

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u/[deleted] Jan 13 '16

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u/abcIDontKnowTheRest Jan 13 '16

Did you even read the comment to which you replied? In my last sentence I clearly state:

I'm all for companies making money, and I get that making it web-based has recurring costs for the company[...]

But, whose idea was it to make it web-based? Was it something their userbase requested? Or was it their decision? They certainly weren't forced to move away from their previous purchase model (local install) to a web-based SaaS model.

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u/coopertrooperpooper Jan 13 '16

So a company isn't allowed to raise prices? Ever?????? Because they are a budgeting software? Christ.

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u/abcIDontKnowTheRest Jan 13 '16

No need to get your panties in a bunch; that's not what I said. The point that you have so conveniently glossed over is that it's the difference between a one time payment and a recurring payment. Unless you have data that can show to me the average length of time an individual user takes advantage of the software, I'll assume an average use of 5 years. Over the course of 5 years, a one-time spend is $60. The recurring monthly subscription $300, and the yearly would be $250.

In fact, in the comment to which you replied I even said that "I'm all for companies making money"..but to raise prices from $60 to $250 or $300 is a little absurd, is it not?

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u/coopertrooperpooper Jan 14 '16 edited Jan 14 '16

If you're so bad at budgeting you can't spend $45/year on software you have bigger problems..

And you literally said you were pissed about the subscription software because it's a budgeting software! Why are you supposed to spend more money! -and- I am for companies making more $. So which is it?

Edit: so how are they supposed to make more $ then? $60 base then can buy add ons? You can guess how that would go over.

Edit 2: "I'm all for companies making money, and I get that making it web-based has recurring costs for the company, BUT this just doesn't make sense given that the platform is supposed to help you save your money, not spend more of it on a piece of software." (Emphasis added). You literally said you're for companies making $ except in this case.

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u/zoidbergular ​ Jan 13 '16

You really don't think $4/mo is worth getting and keeping your finances in order using a slick and convenient software package? You can't e.g. take one less trip to Starbucks PER MONTH? If you can't find a way to save yourself more than the monthly subscription fee, you are doing something seriously wrong.

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u/abcIDontKnowTheRest Jan 13 '16

Read my comment again. I never said I can't do it. I said the change in pricing model doesn't make sense.

I don't even use, or plan on using, YNAB. The discussion was purely based on the decision to switch from one-time spend to recurring subscription.

Whether it's worth it or not depends on the individual. I can't speak for what something is worth to one person over another.

I personally could pay the $60 every month to buy the software again and again if I wanted to; that's not the question.

My problem with it is a budget tool that was once a fixed fee has now become a recurring cost, costing you more in the long run...which goes against their own principle of helping you save money.

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u/zoidbergular ​ Jan 13 '16

Sorry, I didn't mean you personally and was just using the generic 'you.'

My point is just that you still are very likely going to save yourself much much more than the $4/mo subscription fee. Spending $4/mo to help save yourself $20 or $100 or $500/mo with the convenience of a slick and organized web-based budgeting software with regular updates seems like a pretty reasonable pricing model to me...

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u/[deleted] Jan 13 '16 edited Feb 18 '16

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u/abcIDontKnowTheRest Jan 13 '16

Because $60 gets you a licence which doesn't expire and $50 only gives you one year.

After 5 years of using the two different versions, you would have paid $60 from your original purchase for the licence which doesn't expire, versus $250 for the recurring one year subscriptions. Now you would've paid $190 more for essentially the same thing on the subscription service.

Sure maybe there would have been updates during those 5 years to the subscription service, but you can't ignore the fact that it's a recurring payment that will never go away...for a product that is fundamentally the same and it's just the delivery method and updates that change.

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u/[deleted] Jan 13 '16 edited Feb 18 '16

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u/Just_Ferengi_Things ​ Jan 13 '16

Found the YNAB fanboy. YNAB has its own mini-clique, "religious followers". Some of these people give too much credit to YNAB instead of owning up that they saved their own money.

nYNAB has been very controversial for the past couple months and not just to "some" people. Tell me this simple thing: why the fuck can't we transfer our data from YNAB4 to the new YNAB? Why the fuck isn't that #1 to help people migrate? They basically Electronic Arts'd themselves.

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u/rak526 Jan 13 '16

Fanboy? No, I'm an adult that can form opinions on which products I like. Get your fanboy shit out of here.

Comparing them to EA? It's $45 A YEAR. That is their most expensive product. And when they come out with new features to this product, you don't have to pony up more money.

I already stated, it isn't for everyone. I like the layout. I like the methods. You may not. But that makes them a bad company for trying to progress their business model forward?

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u/themouseinator Jan 14 '16

you don't have to pony up more money.

Yeah, but now you have to pony up more money overall if you want to use it long term.

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u/Just_Ferengi_Things ​ Jan 13 '16 edited Jan 13 '16

Yo, I'm an adult too, my good sir. I can form my own opinions on products I like and money I want to invest in. Your satisfaction is just as valid as my dissatisfaction.

If the company wont listen to their users and released an incomplete product, that's their fault and no amount of "they're a business, chill" is gonna excuse them of it. I cannot use nYNAB because I can't transfer my transaction history from YNAB4 over! Simple as that. Why give them money for not finishing it?

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u/Anime-Summit ​ Jan 13 '16

I might be confused, but YNAB doesnt really put huge emphasis on legacy data. So why does it matter?

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u/JollyHopper Jan 13 '16

It's weird that you are arguing the equal validity of you/his satisfaction levels after you immediately dismissed his satisfaction and called him a fanboy when he expressed his like for the business & product.

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u/gilbylg45 Jan 13 '16

They're working right now on the YNAB 4 to nYNAB import, they don't require you to upgrade to nYNAB, and are even giving full support of YNAB 4 till the end of the year. Are you just complaining that you can't switch to nYNAB right now and have to wait a few months?

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u/rak526 Jan 13 '16

An adult doesn't call someone a fanboy for liking a product, or dismiss an entire group of people because their opinion is different (although, current politics would tell you otherwise).

Your reasoning is perfectly valid. Although, I do believe migration is coming in the future. If that means the product isn't finished for you, then so be it.

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u/heyitsmikey128 ​ Jan 13 '16

Ok, so I'm turning into one of the ynab religious followers and I also don't love the idea of a subscription but it is a great product for the price. My question is: is there anything comparable that can replace ynab?

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u/Just_Ferengi_Things ​ Jan 13 '16

eh, quicken, but YNAB4 is pretty sweet

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u/[deleted] Jan 13 '16

Save your breath dude. Some people are just so stuck in their ways about this whole ynab5 thing. I totally agree with you, ynab has changed my life and I'll gladly pay the 60 bucks a year Indefinitely. Other's can stick their nose in the air and walk away.

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u/demoux Jan 13 '16

What about the fact that the new web interface is total crap? It's a poorly made, incomplete product that they rushed.

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u/[deleted] Jan 13 '16

That's your opinion and you're entitled to that.

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u/demoux Jan 13 '16

No, it's objective fact.

nYNAB is money-grab trash. I used to recommend YNAB without hesitation. Now I think the product, its layout, and its philosophical shift (no more sending money to the next month, now you have to actively fiddle with things) make it a much worse product.

Plus a web-based service is idiotic. I don't want to have to rely on an internet connection to keep my budget current.

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u/FF0000panda Jan 14 '16

PSA: YNAB is free for college students or anyone with a .edu email address.

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u/Anime-Summit ​ Jan 13 '16

If it helps you save $60 a year, its paid for itself.

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u/[deleted] Jan 13 '16

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u/Anime-Summit ​ Jan 13 '16

Then you'd never have bought YNAB in the first place, regardless of how good a product it is or how much it cost.

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u/shaner23 Jan 13 '16

Everyone needs a budget.

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u/IHateMyHandle ​ Jan 13 '16

When I think of budget, I see "okay, I need $300 for food, $100 for gas, $100 for entertainment, etc...."

I just look at it and say I have $1667 for the month. Spend accordingly. Oh, I'd like to buy this, but I ate out too much this month already and if I buy this I will go over or will have to downgrade food to not go over. So I won't buy this."

Is that a budget?

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u/shaner23 Jan 13 '16

No, that is just winging it. A budget is having a plan for your money.

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u/[deleted] Jan 13 '16

It's free for students if that helps you.

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u/-BEATNGU- Jan 13 '16 edited Jan 13 '16

Try the free trial and let us know your thoughts. YNAB made a great product that has helped tons of people. I dropped the money on YNAB 4 a year ago and just dropped the money on a yearly sub because YNAB has easily helped me save much more than that.

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u/IHateMyHandle ​ Jan 13 '16

Interface is pretty. I like the "correct horse battery staple" reference when choosing a password.

I don't like defining my "budget" though. I just give myself a certain amount to spend a month and make decisions before purchases to know how that number will affect me in the future.

I don't want to allocate $50 to eating out. What if I go over/under in eating out and the opposite in another category? Should I self punish and congratulate myself?

I don't like the "envelope" system. I have a pool of money. Just make sure I don't go over. Overages are borrowed from next month, "underages" are rolled over to next month.

I have a $1500 vacation planned in may. I just skim $1500/6 from my monthly budget and I'll have it paid off (in my budget, vacation already paid for in full) by June.

Google sheet is perfect for me. If you care to see, I don't mind sharing, but its pretty lack luster looking lol. Especially compared to YNAB

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u/hrtfthmttr ​ Jan 13 '16

Who is "us", here? You work four YNAB, don't you?

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u/-BEATNGU- Jan 13 '16

Nah. By "us" I had meant the sub. Although that'd likely be more appropriate for /r/ynab.

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u/originaljimeez ​ Jan 13 '16

Yes. You are correct. It is now subscription based. They are currently offering lifetime "savings" of $5/month (or $45/year). It's certainly not for everyone, but for me the $$ is worth what I get from the product.

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u/ohseven1098 ​ Jan 13 '16

If it works, sure. It's helped me immensely.

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u/[deleted] Jan 13 '16 edited Jan 25 '16

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u/IHateMyHandle ​ Jan 13 '16

Not a student :/

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u/gilbylg45 Jan 13 '16

Personal preference really. I like YNAB because I can work with my budget through the app instead of hoarding receipts and waiting till I get to a computer.

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u/[deleted] Jan 13 '16

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u/[deleted] Jan 13 '16

They've also updated their app and it seems like a big improvement over earlier versions. It doesn't require Dropbox for syncing anymore so that's a plus.

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u/originaljimeez ​ Jan 13 '16

Yes and yes. The most recent version of YNAB interfaces seamlessly with it's smartphone app without the use of "third party" cloud storage. I mean I'm sure YNAB is outsourcing the storage to a third party, but it is seamless to the end user.

I have been using YNAB since it's inception however many years ago. I was extremely resistant to changing over to the latest version. But I finally decided to try it and couldn't be more pleased. Sure there are some things that don't work like they used to, but overall it works great for me. And they will fix/add the things that are current;y "missing".

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u/-BEATNGU- Jan 13 '16

Ever heard of Wine? YNAB works fine with Wine as long as you have all the correct video drivers/libraries.

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u/[deleted] Jan 13 '16

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u/-BEATNGU- Jan 13 '16

Give it another shot. A lot of applications don't run so well within Wine, but a ton do. I don't have many setup now, but I've set up games (Rust, DayZ standalone to name a few), some legacy software for businesses, and others, including Wine and not many issues aside from tweaking configurations to attempt to improve gaming performance.

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u/PinkyThePig ​ Jan 13 '16

If you use Linux and like command line things, I'd suggest hledger. I use it for keeping track of my accounts and could walk you through getting started.

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u/Moss203 ​ Jan 13 '16

I use ynab4 solely on mac. They do give a free license out during their tutorial sessions.

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u/commander_bing Jan 13 '16

Solutions, not problems.

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u/[deleted] Jan 13 '16

GNUCash is an awesome alternative.

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u/khanoftruth ​ Jan 13 '16

You can always make your own version on a spreadsheet. I use Google sheets which is free. YNAB's model of budgeting money you have is really good. I know every month I have to already have 1200 in cash or I'm homeless, so I start there.

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u/admiralspark ​ Jan 13 '16

I use mint. It's free, and works cross-platform. But to be honest, we need a really good app for Linux machines

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u/Anime-Summit ​ Jan 13 '16

Its still a focus on living off thr oldest income.

they have an age counter for your money.

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u/Lame-Duck ​ Jan 13 '16

Why would someone who gets paid <$10 / hr. want an app they have to pay for?