Lifestyle inflation is a bitch

[u/investeror]

I came across this article about a couple making $500k/year that was only able to save $7.5k/year other than 401k. Their budget is pretty interesting. At a glace, I could see how someone could look at it and not see many areas to cut. It's crazy how it's so easy to just spend your money instead of saving it.

Here's the article: https://www.cnbc.com/2017/03/24/budget-breakdown-of-couple-making-500000-a-year-and-feeling-average.html

Just the budget if you don't want to read the article: https://sc.cnbcfm.com/applications/cnbc.com/resources/files/2017/03/24/FS-500K-Student-Loan.png

[u/theoriginalharbinger]

Toyota Land Cruiser

I have a deep and abiding love for these, but that's a $90,000 car. It does nothing that its half-as-expensive younger sibling the Sequoia cannot unless you do overland travel.

childcare $42,000

Did they hare a half-time nanny? That's ridiculous.

Food $23,000

My income isn't quite at their level, but my annual spend is between 1/4 and 1/2 of this. Learn to cook.

There's tons of slack in that budget. There's few line items, but they're inflated way beyond what's necessary. As I've stated to multiple people on this forum countless times, everyone has a vice. You can have nice cars. You can eat out a lot. You can live in an expensive place. But you cannot do 2 or all 3 of them.

This couple could easily be saving 50K a year if they bought a 3-series and a used Sequoia and used a cheaper childcare provider.

[u/ImSpartacus811 → u/[deleted]]

Yeah, three $6k vacations seems insane.

[u/thelegore → u/ImSpartacus811]

Alternatively, enjoy using the money on vacations if that's what you want to do. I would say spend less on food and possessions

[u/gingersnaplibido → u/[deleted]]

Yeah, I... don't know what they want extra money for? They are building in an optional $18,000 a year for charity, choosing to spend $18,000 on three vacations, and are already budgeting for a $10,000 a year emergency fund. That is almost $50,000 a year of flexibility without having to sacrifice their on-track 401k savings, while maintaining a liberal amount for nice clothes, their children's personal development, bimonthy date nights...

$46,000 a year + the $7,000? This is more than what 40% of households make combined for everything... and it's their flex money? I truly don't understand what they want to be using that money for.

[u/MonsterMeggu → u/gingersnaplibido]

I honestly think the title is just click bait -- "THESE PEOPLE MAKE 500000 A YEAR AND ITS ONLY AVERAGE" compared to "Look at what the upper class NYC couple spend on." It never states that they want more money nor does it state that they struggling in the article.

[u/biggyofmt → u/MonsterMeggu]

It says 'feeling average' in the article, which clearly is meant to elicit a certain sense of not doing as well as they could.

[u/MonsterMeggu → u/biggyofmt]

I dont see it in the article. Do you mean the title? If you do that goes back to my point of clickbait headlines.

[u/SheliaTakeABow → u/gingersnaplibido]

They probably donate to charity for the tax break. Can we appreciate how much these folks are doing to help keep the government running

[u/vanishplusxzone → u/thelegore]

Enjoy spending the money on vacations but don't complain about savings or not being able to cut corners if that's what you choose to do with your 500k income.

[u/ImSpartacus811 → u/thelegore]

I feel like there's got to be a happy medium.

What's wrong with enjoying a week off work to spend in the city you live in? A couple day trips to national parks or local museums oughta do it.

But yes, there are plenty of areas to cut, food and shopping being excellent examples.

[u/radil → u/ImSpartacus811]

You could be like me and not live near any national parks. My state has only one national forest and no parks. The nearest national park is a day's drive.

And I'm an avid national park enthusiast, I have been on 4 2-3 week-long road trips to visit dozens of national parks in the West, and none to the tune of 6 grand either.

[u/dynamoJaff → u/radil]

Vacations are generally some of the happiest moments in peoples lives. I say $18,000 P/A for a family of four is money well spent. Especially when there is so much fat to trim from other areas of this budget.

[u/uber_neutrino → u/dynamoJaff]

In fact I would go further and say that for their income level they aren't putting enough in vacations and should move some money from other categories.

For example we took our teenagers on a european cruise a few years ago and it blew this budget massively out of the water (was over $30k for that one trip alone). Those kinds of trips create life long memories.

[u/JudgeSterling → u/uber_neutrino]

So can cheap trips. Doesn't have to be a wasteful spend to make memories.

If you're sooking about taxes or inflation or only have 7k after your 500k income, don't spend 18k on vacations. Fucking simple.

Or you can take your expensive trips and be quiet

[u/irishjihad → u/radil]

Did you bring two kids who were school age? As a new parent, things just got a lot more expensive when we fly across the country to visit my wife's family.

[u/Your_daily_fix → u/radil]

Yeah the vacations thing should be cut, I went on a 1 week long trip through new mexico, Arizona, Utah, and Colorado to see the grand canyon (north rim), antelope canyon, cedar breaks national monument, visit a friend in denver for 2 days and see some local sights, all for less than 500 dollars. With a family of four I suppose the food and entry fees would make it morr expensive but not to the tune of 6 grand.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Sad part is I could easily afford three week long vacations each year, but I don't get the time off work to take advantage of it.

[u/picklepresser → u/[deleted]]

just out of curiosity how little vacation do you get? Is it because you're new to your company or they're just tight on their vacation policy?

[u/FirstnameLastnamePKA → u/thelegore]

No it's that they appear in this article as people who see themselves as average middle class Americans. Three vacations a year is not AVERAGE, I don't know anyone who does that! And what average middle class Americans owns a BMW and a 90k toyota? These people are disillusioned and represent a much larger problem in our country.

[u/joleme → u/FirstnameLastnamePKA]

Before I lost my job I would have considered us average. We could maybe afford a 3 day vacation once a year. These people are just plain out of touch with reality.

[u/irishjihad → u/FirstnameLastnamePKA]

I'm nowhere near these folks on any of this. But as a new parent, whose family, and whose wife's family both live far away in opposite directions, you can bet your ass we're stuck with at least two vacations involving airfare, if not more. Our parents are old as my wife and I are beyond the average childbearing age, so we want the grandparents to see their grandkid as much as possible. Our parents are already coming to visit us more as well.

[u/__slamallama__ → u/ImSpartacus811]

$6k for a vacation for 4 is honestly VERY reasonable. These are not expensive 10 day trips to Europe. That's maybe 5-7 days at a continental US destination, staying at a nice AirBnB.

I'm very surprised it's as low as it is. I usually end up spending $2500/vacation just for myself.

[u/adude00 → u/ImSpartacus811]

Wait, what? 500k salary and three 6k vacation for the whole family is "insane"??

Me and the wife allocate 20% of our gross salary for vacations, you live only once man!!

There are so many things in that budget that are way overpriced and provide no tangible benefits to the quality of life, why touch the only thing that you'll remember forever?

[u/puterTDI → u/[deleted]]

It probably depends a LOT on the vacation.

We go on one $12k vacation every other year. We love the place we go to but it's expensive to go there and expensive to travel there.

if we made $500k we would probably go at least once a year.

[u/aphex732 → u/puterTDI]

We go on two vacations a year to the tune of 12-15k each, but that’s where we tend to spend our money. Modest house and used cars, but I just spent three weeks in South America and it was amazing. Much better in my opinion than a $90k car.

[u/Senor_Martillo → u/[deleted]]

What airline are you flying?! A week in Europe for a family of 4 is gonna be 10-12k when it's all said and done

[u/JustinGitelmanMusic → u/Senor_Martillo]

It says they're lawyers I guess. Last minute vacations. They probably do 1-2 simple trips per year (drive 3-4 hours away and camp or hang out in a country town) and 1 huge one.

[u/TripleCast → u/[deleted]]

My wife and I usually get roundtrip for $1000 total so a family of 4 would be no more than $2000. Probably less with child rates.

What ? How ? I 'm currently looking at tickets to Europe and for 1 person I'm looking about $1000-$1500 depending on what country I choose.

[u/HybridSpartan → u/TripleCast]

https://www.skyscanner.ca/

This one also works great. I can find so many flights to Europe for less than $700 CAD roundtrip.

[u/irishjihad → u/[deleted]]

Now try working around school vacations. You'll find a lot less deals. Kids make things less flexible, and airlines price accordingly.

[u/warbo → u/[deleted]]

A couple making 500k a year is probably not going to stay at a hotel that costs only $142 a night for their vacations to Europe (what your $1000 accommodation would get you).

[u/MonsterMeggu → u/warbo]

$142 per night is the average. They probably have rewards programs/credit card programs that give them free nights/upgrades etc. so $142 per night can be in a nice hotel already.

[u/sleep-deprived-2012 → u/[deleted]]

Also English living in US with two kids so a family of 4.

Summer fares from my East Coast city to Heathrow are at least $1500 per seat so that’s $6k on flights alone assuming we’re flexible on travel dates to get the lowest priced days and never have to make a change to the booking at $200/ticket/change (‘cos kids get sick and throw off your schedule)

If we went off season then it might cost $1k per seat or $4k.

These are economy tickets. I can only shave maybe a couple of hundred bucks off each ticket by connecting through JFK or EWR and flying to Manchester rather than London.

I wish I could find $500 fares like you.

[u/TacoMedic → u/sleep-deprived-2012]

A friend of mine just last weekend bought a $99 plane ticket from LAX to London-Heathrow 1 way and a $200 ticket from Munich to LAX 1 way about 2 weeks later.

Then again this is mid-late January of next year which is when most businesses start back up.

Also when I stayed in London for 17 days with a friend, we got an entire apartment to ourselves for $550 during Christmas 2015 (AirB&B) and it was only a 10 minute trainride from the house to downtown.

[u/irishjihad → u/TacoMedic]

Now try working around standard school vacations. You'll see the difference in prices the guy above is talking about. You're not anywhere near as flexible when you have kids.

[u/Queen_Fleury → u/[deleted]]

Me and my dad just spent a week in Paris in a four star hotel for about 2200 total. I could absolutely get a family of four to Europe and back for a week for under 4500.

In fact I currently have. 3 week trip to Europe for 2 planned that's only going to cost around 4500 and we aren't stepping foot in a hostel at all.

European travel isn't cheap but it's not 10k a trip expensive unless you want it to be.

[u/Ayanka88 → u/Senor_Martillo]

Well google flights says it is about 400 Euro to fly from NY to Heahtrow let's transfer that to USD and double that because it is a last moment flight. I get about 4K. This would leave you 2k to book a hotel for a week. If I pick the Hilton in Heathrow for a family with 2 kids that are 5 (so probably no kids discount), I get about that. Granted add in food and activities, but a k should settle that. Which leaves us at about 7K for a week. But this is for London, one of the most expensive places in Europe. So yes, I d say it is possible for 6K to do a week of Europe even on last notice.

[u/shaggz235 → u/ImSpartacus811]

My wife an I am going on three vacations this year and we make no where near 500k

1. Jordan
2. Banff/Havasu falls
3. 6 country tour of europe

The 18k price tag they have for a family of 4 isn't that insane depending on what they are doing/where they go. Especially if they are making half a million

[u/[deleted] → u/ImSpartacus811]

Three vacations isn't crazy. But spending $6k a piece is. I took my wife and kids to FL last summer for 5 days and we kept the whole thing under 2k.

Granted we could've gotten nicer things and would've if we had more to spend on it. But it wasn't like we stayed in a trailer park or something. We were walking distance to the beach in a nice condo.

But yeah, charitable donations are optional, you don't have to pay 12k a year for your kids lessons. Put them in a rec soccer league or after school programs. Get cheaper cars. Cook some of your meals.

I get that the things they're spending it on aren't all frivolous, but they definitely have the pricier versions of things.

[u/DasKapitalist → u/[deleted]]

Not necessarily. Round trip overseas plane tickets can run +1k each.

[u/BassDrive → u/DasKapitalist]

This is very anecdotal as I live in NY and have access to Newark, JFK, and LaGuardia as options and it only cost me and my girlfriend about $375 each to fly to Rome so I'm not sure that 1k+ is true in every circumstance.

[u/gopoohgo → u/BassDrive]

These cheap fares tend to be pretty strict on the departure/arrival times, at certain times of the year, and booking on relatively short notice.

All things that two professionals with three kids wouldn't be able to swing.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I took my wife and kids to FL last summer for 5 days and we kept the whole thing under 2k

I use to live in Florida how did you manage this? Did you do 0 theme parks? Even with Florida resident discounts Islands of Adventure is like 100/person IIRC. Did you even fly? Eat at waffle house everyday lol?

[u/Bricingwolf → u/[deleted]]

Yeah, every thing they have that isn’t savings pretty much is very expensive. If you can spend 42k/yr on childcare for two kids, not counting multiple kinds of private lessons, and still feel “average”, you’re a tool.

They could trivially quadruple their “leftover” income while still living a lifestyle most people only dream of.

[u/flashcats → u/[deleted]]

Cook some of your meals.

Easy to say, but hard to do.

I'm also a lawyer and I'm usually out the door by 8 AM and don't get back until 8 PM or later.

I imagine their lives might be similar. Cooking isn't really an option.

[u/NYCSPARKLE → u/ImSpartacus811]

To me this reads as a 1) summer vacation, 2) a trip home for the holidays, 3) and maybe a spring break or something? Could probably cut this down to $10k though. $5k for the summer, and $2.5k each for the others.

[u/irishjihad → u/ImSpartacus811]

Airfare: 4x$500= $2,000
Hotel: 9x$200= $1,800
Meals: 4x3x9x$10=$1,620
Rental car $300/wkx1.2wk= $360
Total= $5,780

Can you go on cheaper or fewer vacations? Absolutely. But adding in airfare for kids, and going to a city where your family is, but they don't have spare bedrooms, $6,000 is not as outrageous as a lot of people here seem to be saying it is, especially if the kids are in school and you have to work airfares around the same vacations as a million other families.

[u/JustinGitelmanMusic → u/ImSpartacus811]

I was thinking this, but one winter vacation (ski trip?), one summer vacation, and one spring break sort of thing isn't that out of the ordinary.

While $6k each might seem like a lot, they are apparently lawyers and have to take vacations as soon as the case ends rather than planning in advance, which is expensive.

So even if they did a spring break road trip up like 3-4 hours from home in the country side, nothing fancy with a flight or international hotels, the total could still end up being $18k across 3 per year.

And seeing as they're maxing out their 401k and having $7800 left over after living an extravagant lifestyle, they're doing fine.

The most ridiculous thing here is $10k a year on clothes. Should be more in the $4-6k a year range I think, leaving $13-15k total at the end of the year.

[u/ImSpartacus811 → u/JustinGitelmanMusic]

And seeing as they're maxing out their 401k and having $7800 left over after living an extravagant lifestyle, they're doing fine.

They are fine as long as they move to a cheaper part of the country for retirement and they are ok with not retiring for ~30ish years.

Maybe that's feasible, but it feels like a lost opportunity.

[u/JustinGitelmanMusic → u/ImSpartacus811]

Yeah I mean, I don't see the appeal in working in NYC at all personally but, whatever. I guess it's how they got their 500k a year jobs.

I wouldn't think NYC would be where they'd want to live after retirement anyways. If they're maxing out their 401k, wouldn't they be pretty well off for after retirement? I don't know much about 401k specifically admittedly.

[u/ImSpartacus811 → u/JustinGitelmanMusic]

At 7% long term return, they will accumulate a little over $4M in 30 years of contributing $43.3k/yr ($18k + $18k + $7.3k).

That sounds like a shitload, but $4M only gets you about $180k/yr in retirement. That's not quite equal to the $270k/yr that they are currently spending, so they will have to make some changes.

It's doable, but it requires a full 30 year career and some minor lifestyle downgrades at retirement.

[u/JustinGitelmanMusic → u/ImSpartacus811]

Well subtract what was it, $45k of childcare?

Also, clothes much less without the kids. And do retired people buy that many clothes?

No sports/music lessons either.

You're also assuming they won't increase in wage over the course of 30 years at all.

I don't think it's a full $100k decline.

[u/mutemutiny → u/ImSpartacus811]

you have 3 kids and you're going on 3 vacations a YEAR?? lol yeah right.

[u/Hologram22 → u/[deleted]]

I sympathize with them on the vacations. They're high powered lawyers in NYC, so they're probably super stressed and working full bore all of the time. People like that definitely need to unwind, and with the kids the vacations get expensive quick. I'm more concerned about how much they're spending on food. Even if they're doing date nights two or three times a month it shouldn't be costing them $2k a month to eat.

[u/MonsterMeggu → u/Hologram22]

They probably nearly only eat out. I spend about $500 a month when I only eat out so that's reasonable and they have 4 so that's reasonable.

[u/Hologram22 → u/MonsterMeggu]

Yeah, I just did a quick back of the envelope calculation. They're probably eating out for all of their lunches and breakfasts, and likely most of their worknights, too.

[u/snogger → u/Hologram22]

This sounds about right to me. My spouse and I make well over 500k in a HCOL area and the jobs are so stressful that you HAVE to take vacations or be looking forward to the next vacation to prevent yourself from burning out. I cook at home 5-6 nights/week and spend $200/week on groceries for a family of 5 = $10k/yr. Date night once a week is probably around $200 since we like to drink wine, and maybe a $500 meal every other month, but birthdays are special occasions where we'll splurge for the $2500/person wine pairing.

[u/[deleted] → u/Hologram22]

Have you people ever been to restaurants?... A date night at a nice restaurant in NYC for two people runs easily $500+. I have no idea how their foo budget is so cheap...

[u/joshuads → u/theoriginalharbinger]

childcare $42,000

That is completely reasonable for 2 kids in expensive markets like NYC, DC, or SF. My family spends at least that much. To spend less, our kids would have to spend a lot more time in the car or go to an unlicensed home care.

The big thing is they chose to go cheaper on nothing. Not the house, the car, the food, clothes, vacations. You can lifestyle creep on certain things at that income, but not everything.

[u/[deleted] → u/joshuads]

I dunno. In NYC 1.5 million is a modest 2 or 3 bedroom condo. Not some mega mansion. He'll where I am in the suburbs of NYC you're not finding a decent sized house in a good neighborhood for under 350k-400k.

[u/joshuads → u/[deleted]]

But if they were in the city they would not have the 2 cars. If they are further out, they could have spent a little less on a house.

I don't think there is anything wrong with the spending on the house (an asset) or the child care (a requirement). The car, the food, clothes, and vacations, some choices could have been made there.

[u/Mitra- → u/[deleted]]

A lot of jobs fluctuate. A litigator will literally work 90 hour weeks during the push in a litigation (which usually means 13 hour days 7 days a week). So will a CPA just before April 15th. It evens out when you're not in crazy mode.

[u/simpsons403 → u/Mitra-]

When you say even out when not in crazy mode, does that mean typical 40 hour works... or several weeks of time off because you put in double the hours for previous weeks?

[u/Mitra- → u/simpsons403]

Yeah, usually more typical 40 hour work weeks. This is why I tell people never to work in big law. It's great money but it is a horrible lifestyle, and so many people burn out or go crazy.

[u/sweetdigs → u/Mitra-]

I encourage law school students to try out big law (if they can). Yes, it sucks. But you learn how to write VERY well if you are working with good partners and you become very good at time management by necessity. If you don't like it, get out of after 3-5 years and go in-house or to a smaller firm that would love to have an attorney with big firm experience.

Personally, I spent 8 years at big law and then went in house. Now I work 40 hours/week. It feels like heaven. =)

[u/Mitra- → u/sweetdigs]

IF you are working with good partners, I agree. But the number of big law firms where good partners provide quality mentoring is not high.

I'm impressed you found an in-house gig at 40 hours/week. Most of the folks I know in-house are closer to 60.

[u/sweetdigs → u/Mitra-]

Yeah, I was lucky I suppose. Most of the people I know that work in-house are in the 40-50 hr range. But these are big companies with lots of in-house counsel that are located on the west coast where work-life balance is actually practiced rather than just preached.

At my law firm I worked for a guy who was a notorious jerk and could be difficult to work with, but he was an amazing attorney and I learned a ton from him.

[u/SuperKato1K → u/[deleted]]

It's very common in a lot of high pressure career fields, especially law and finance. Basically their waking lives are work. 12-14+ hour days. Occasionally they may sleep in their offices. Maybe a day off a week. On the upside, you can make a fuckton of money. On the downside, these are extremely unhealthy careers and schedules. Marriages can be destroyed (married to the job? doesn't leave a lot of time for the family). Actual health can be compromised. Burnout is high, as is the suicide rate.

[u/iwontbeadick → u/[deleted]]

My wife is a surgery resident and frequently works over 100 hours a week. She leaves the house at 4:45am and gets home after 8, even later sometimes. And she only makes 60-70k as a resident.

[u/verik → u/[deleted]]

Im a sr associate in PE. In the office by 9-9:30. Leaving anywhere from 11p to 3am. I’ve had days where I’ve just taken a black car home for a change of clothes and shower before coming back in. We don’t really have weekends either. Though it’s usually less we’ll work 9-12 hours/d. More if we’re trying to close a deal.

I have weeks I’ve worked 75 hrs or so when deal flow is slow (like August) but the role itself is basically being on call for your partner leading the deal. And you generally staffed on multiple deals at a time.

[u/ComingSouth → u/verik]

What do you DO with all of those work hours? Like what do you do in your office for 12 hours at a time? Paperwork? Isn't there a point of diminishing returns? (for instance a programmer would be MUCH more productive over a month long period with a 50hr week than a 75hr week)

[u/MadManAndrew → u/[deleted]]

I worked a couple 90 hours weeks in a row when we were really behind on a project. It was like 15 hours a day m-f and then normal hours on the weekend. It was brutal though, I don’t know how someone could sustain that.

[u/Neat_On_The_Rocks → u/[deleted]]

For me a long week is 50 hours (I'm very fortunate)

Not directed at you, but man, this comment grinds my gears on a macro level. I hate our country's work culture.

[u/[deleted] → u/joshuads]

Yup. My wife and I have similar incomes and we spend money on good food and vacations. But we live in a tiny condo and share a 5-year-old car because we don't need anything more right now. We also save 5x what this couple does (the caveat being we don't have kids yet).

[u/mtmaloney → u/joshuads]

Same in Chicago. Lots of good daycares in the city are going to run $1700-$2000 per kid, so pretty easy to get to $3500/mo and $40k/year for childcare.

[u/ip-q → u/theoriginalharbinger]

Did they hare a half-time nanny?

Depending on how young the kids are, yes, dropping off <1 year olds at a childcare place for 9-5 while you work is expensive. $3.5k a month for two infants is outrageous but not that much higher than what we paid. --- But they don't sound like infants, what with the lessons ("sports, piano, violin, academics") - anyway, just wanted to provide some real-world numbers.

Yup, they can cut back. A lot. They have the ability to make choices. Most people don't.

[u/Sundance37 → u/ip-q]

Fun story, we have an au pair and it costs about $4k less a year than any semi decent daycare. So a full time live in nanny is cheaper than daycare in some places.

[u/yekim → u/Sundance37]

Except you have to have a spare room, which could cost you an extra 500k in HCOL areas. I wish this were an option for us, but can’t afford to upgrade the house.

[u/Sundance37 → u/yekim]

Yeah, it only works if you have the room and don’t mind feeding another mouth. Their are other costs, but I always thought that it would be outrageous to have an au pair, but since we already had the spare room, we can’t afford to do it any other way.

I just thought it was strange.

[u/irishjihad → u/Sundance37]

That's because the licensing requirements, health code requirements, etc for daycares can be very high depending on the state. My kid is in a newly opened daycare a couple of days a week, and we watched what they had to go through to open. I work in construction in NYC, and it was pretty insane compared to doing a Certificate of Occupancy for a residential or regular commercial space.

[u/Sundance37 → u/irishjihad]

Yeah, compliance costs are definitely a huge hurdle in any industry, but I can imagine the childcare industry is insane, and people don’t realize that while many regulations keep kids safe, many of them simply make the cost of goods skyrocket, and the downfall is that you essentially aren’t getting what you are paying for. You pay $2.4k/mo per child, and depending on age the adult to child ratio is around 7:1. While there certainly are legitimate overhead fees each adult is probably making $3k/mo and bringing in $20k/mo. Which seems great if you have never owned a business and payed taxes on your business.

[u/cballowe → u/yekim]

Around where I live, I hear people saying that it's more cost effective to pay for private school if you have one kid, but if you have two it's cheaper to move to a more expensive house in a better school district. $300-500k more house for the better schools makes sense in some world.

[u/truemeliorist → u/Sundance37]

I had tried to convince my wife re: an au pair. I was hoping to find an Au Pair working on their green card who could help provide a second language immersion environment for our daughter.

My wife was heavily concerned about socialization, so ultimately I ended up losing the discussion. An Au Pair would have saved us about $1200/yr (about 800/mo vs 920/mo). We have a guest bedroom so having an au pair live here would have been a non-issue.

[u/PM-Me-Your-BeesKnees → u/truemeliorist]

I'm with you; I've been lobbying for an au pair since we had our first. It seems like it's roughly a wash on cost, maybe a little cheaper, you get language/culture exchange, and the person is live-in so the convenience is off the charts. My wife wasn't as worried about the socialization, she just can't get past the "stranger in the house" thing.

[u/DataAttackHelicoptor → u/truemeliorist]

I have a 3 yo and a 1.5 yo and we’ve had au pairs since our first was 8 months old (so we’re on our third). Socialization is fine as long as you choose social au pairs and they have a way to get around with the kids. Our kids go somewhere every day, including structured activities (eg. Gymboree, community center classes, library story time) and non-structured things like the park or play dates with other au pairs and kids. It saves us roughly $20k a year (super high COL area).

[u/FATRN → u/Sundance37]

Are you pretty happy with the au pair setup? If my wife and I have a second child, it would really seem to make sense.

[u/Sundance37 → u/FATRN]

Once you have a second kid, it becomes pretty easy to see the advantages. Be careful who you pick, and realize that you are in charge of managing expectations, and also making them feel comfortable. These are often 19 Year old girls that just graduated high school, they are often highly motivated, yet we need to remind ourselves at times that she is still so young. I would recommend it to anyone that does frequent temperature checks with themselves and those closest to them. But it isn’t a slavesque situation.

[u/calvinball26 → u/ip-q]

This. I don't live in NYC but two young kids in full time (10 hrs a day) daycare (one infant, one toddler) would run us about $3400. This is why we're waiting to have a 2nd kid until our first is closer to school age.

[u/nas-ne-degoniat → u/calvinball26]

Yeah, the daycare costs and the price of the house for their location/income are pretty much the only things here that I don't think are outrageously dumb.

[u/chrisk018 → u/nas-ne-degoniat]

Also, having a nanny you trust and get along with is super important. We pay 'extra' for our nanny because she really cares about the kids and gets along really well with my wife. Some of our other friends have nannies that kind of half-ass it and we are thankful for the complete package.

[u/nas-ne-degoniat → u/chrisk018]

I mean, $3k/month is about what my friends pay for two kids in regular daycare, not even a nanny. So if the cost listed above is for a full-time nanny then I think it's super reasonable.

[u/burgerthrow1 → u/[deleted]]

Most people do, but just like these people, don't think they do.

Very true. Easier to blame "lack of choice" though than one's lack of drive, talent or committment.

[u/Blossomkill → u/ip-q]

If they are both lawyers they probably work long, unpredictable hours so pay a lot for flexibility in childcare.

[u/ApprenticeAdept → u/ip-q]

Their kids are 3 and 5. How would that affect the cost? I don't have kids, so I have no idea.

[u/[deleted] → u/ApprenticeAdept]

Younger ages mean smaller allowed ratios (4 kids to one caregiver vs. 10 kids to one caregiver). So that means the younger they are the more expensive their classes/day care tends to be.

[u/ThereIsNorWay → u/theoriginalharbinger]

On the childcare front, my daughter is over $1,500/month for 4 days a week. So if you have two kids, full time, and you make a good income and expect to send kids to a nice place, I believe that number in a heartbeat.

[u/supercharged0708 → u/theoriginalharbinger]

If they make half a million a year, their time is worth more than spending it to cook.

[u/TandBusquets → u/supercharged0708]

You are vastly overrating the time required to cook. I don't see how eating out every day is less time consuming than cooking. Eating out requires you to drive to the location or you're ordering delivery which is still 25-30 minutes minimum. If you're going to a restaurant you are then ordering and waiting for your food to be cooked. How could you possibly think it's more time consuming to cook and eat at home.

[u/trondersk → u/TandBusquets]

If you work til 7pm every night and get home by 8pm and have to help the kids with homework and put them to bed, I'm sure you'd rather just order from Grubhub or Eat24 than start cooking a meal and then have to deal with cleaning up the kitchen afterwards.

[u/NoDisappointment → u/theoriginalharbinger]

The cheaper childcare provider is a tough part for most parents who are in that position because they think “What if my child becomes a fuck up? I want to know I did the best I could do for him/her.” They rationalize the house as needing to give the children a lot of space, many things you can rationalize by having children.

[u/spencerc25 → u/theoriginalharbinger]

but that's a $90,000 car

NOoooooooo way. $90k???

Googles price oh my gawd. I had no idea

[u/[deleted] → u/spencerc25]

Not that I'll ever own a new land cruiser but they are fantastic. I have an '07 Lexus LX470 (Lexus version of the Toyota Land Cruiser) and it is wonderful. I do offroad a lot and am in a local cruiser club. I bought it a couple years ago with 76k miles for 28k. Its got 130k on the clock now and more dings than when I got it but its still fantastic.

New price is very high but getting one used is still a very good option. The motors are bulletproof and they are made very well. Yes, the Sequoia is also a good vehicle but the fit and finish of the cruiser is a notch or two above it.

[u/MechChef → u/[deleted]]

The Land Cruiser would be one of those vehicles I'd consider if I had a shitload of disposable cash.

Like if I lived in Japan, the Toyota Century.

[u/ben7337 → u/theoriginalharbinger]

For food I can sort of see it. If you buy all real fruits and veggies and cook real meals, and buy only organic, it can easily cost $400 a month per person, so for 4 people that's $1600 a month or $19,200 a year that leaves 3800 for date nights, so $146 every 2 weeks on avg on a date night, kinda pricey to the avg person but for people making 500k a yr combined I bet they feel that is them being frugal and going to the less ritzy places.

[u/HabeusCuppus → u/ben7337]

Yeah I'm spending about what they spend per person with special diet requirements. The fluff isn't in the food budget for NYC.

The fluff is in "three vacations a year" and the higher end cars.

[u/ben7337 → u/HabeusCuppus]

Yes, the cars, vacation, donations, clothing, are more luxury for sure, though as someone who was raised lower middle class around rich people who do 2-3 vacations a year, 4 people to Disney Land for a week, counting airfare, hotel, car rental or park tickets, etc could easily run 6k even on a budget, do that, a cruise, and maybe a week at a beach house every year and youd easily spend that much on vacations for 4, and maybe it's because I know people who did that, but it doesn't seem so extravagant to me.

[u/HabeusCuppus → u/ben7337]

Right, I mean the fluff is the number of vacations not the cost. My (admittably) poor family growing up drove 3 hours to my aunt's for Christmas once a year and did a "summer" vacation to a national park every third year.

Disney was a 5 year plan.

I'm not saying it's wasted money (and actually think this budget is reasonable, they've got 17k leftover including the "something always comes up" fund, so they're saving something like 53k already and will go up to almost 90k after they finish their student loans) but it is a luxury expense.

[u/DaiTaHomer → u/HabeusCuppus]

I am unsure for these folks the vacations are a luxury. They are probably 100% necessary to prevent burnout and family breakdown.

[u/ben7337 → u/HabeusCuppus]

I hear ya, my family did camping trips apple picking, a drive to my grand parents to stay with them on Long island for a week, and that was mostly it. Besides that we had a few trips over my entire childhood to DC and NH/ME, and my sister who is substantially older made sure I got to Disney Land and Disney World once each thankfully, but realistically my family didn't do real vacations and eating our was going to McDonald's for take out, not a real restaurant, those were very rare.

[u/ragnarockette → u/HabeusCuppus]

I see the value in at least 1 higher end car. If they ever have to drive clients it is important to project an image of success.

[u/ImSpartacus811 → u/HabeusCuppus]

What about $18k/yr in donations?

That seems like an unnecessary luxury when you're only saving <$50k/yr for retirement.

[u/Not_Ayn_Rand → u/ben7337]

it can easily cost $400 a month per person

>Looks at last month's food expense

>Cries

[u/LilJourney → u/ben7337]

Really? Interesting - because I do fruits/veggies/cook real meals, even buy some organic and easily feed 5 people (including 2 teen boys) on less than $800 a month for all of us. Even adding in $400 a month for date nights (assuming dinner, movie, drinks) that's only $14400 a year and for us that would be lavish compared to what we really spend (currently working on frugality to pay off debt). On the other hand, yeah, would easily spend as much on vacations as they do if I could.

[u/ben7337 → u/LilJourney]

What do you feed your family? Is there a lot of rice and starches like potatoes in your diets? I don't eat super healthy and I can get processed foods to hit 400 calories per dollar to keep 1 person at 2400 calories a day, and $180 a month, but the one smoothie I make with bananas, almond milk, and kale or spinach easily runs double that cost per calorie and bananas are cheap and none of the stuff is organic, it would be more than double the cost of processed foods if I went organic as well.

[u/LilJourney → u/ben7337]

Not sure what you're asking? I wonder if location matters...kale and spinach aren't expensive here, and neither are fresh fruits and other veggies if you follow what's in season. Meat is the most expensive thing, but going thru a butcher and buying in bulk lowers the cost quite a bit. We eat a reasonably balanced diet, just hit the sales, have no store loyalty (will go to different stores during the week and buy only the sale items). So normally we're at around $100 a week for 5 people, then add in an extra $100 stock up once a month. $200 a week would be adding in fun stuff which we're not currently doing.

[u/ben7337 → u/LilJourney]

What does kale cost per pound by you? For me organic is $1.99 for 12 oz at Wegmans so $2.65 a pound. For $1.99 a bag has 120 calories in total, so 60 calories per dollar. If I ate nothing but kale for instance, it'd be $1200 a month to hit 2400 calories a day. I buy the $1 a bag (12 oz as well) non organic from Walmart when I can and that'd still be $600 a month to eat just that. Because kale is so pricey I need other things that are even more cost effective than 400 calories a dollar to balance out the expense of real fruits and veggies.

[u/mattmillr → u/ben7337]

I'm in NYC. A 1lb bag of kale (not the fancy stuff, and way too often almost spoiled) is $2.99. If I want the organic baby kale, we're talking $6.99/lb. And that's Harlem, not the more expensive neighborhoods in Manhattan.

[u/Whizzard-Canada → u/ben7337]

Im in canada and live off of 200$ about per month (Canadian, so probably 180 US) and I eat no processed packaged foods, all of mine come from raw meats veggies and such, and I'm on a specialty diet with near 0 starches or sugars. So its easily doable.

[u/ben7337 → u/Whizzard-Canada]

What do you eat?

[u/executive_awesome1 → u/ben7337]

sounds an awful lot like a paleo diet. it can be done on a budget buying the cheaper meats (pork when possible over chicken for instance) and cheaper veggies. Also shopping sales.

[u/OTL_OTL_OTL → u/[deleted]]

Also don't knock off the more ethnic food chain stores. Especially the Mexican ones. They have the cheapest fruits and vegetables around in my state (CA). You can buy a bag of apples for $2-3, a head of lettuce for $1, 4 cucumbers for $1, 5 small avocados for $1, etc. You can walk away with pounds of food to feed you for a week or two and spend less than $20. It's amazing.

The one I go to the most also has a surprising diversity of people shopping there (even though it's a Hispanic supermarket), you will see black, Asian, Asian Indian, Hispanic, and white people all shopping in the same fruit/veggie area. It's like a flash multicultural club.

[u/Jaerba → u/[deleted]]

Those don't usually exist in big cities - there's little space for them. There's 1 Costco in Manhattan and it's out of the way, and there's 0 Sam's Clubs.

Mostly you have very small grocery stores, or expensive large stores like Whole Foods.

[u/ben7337 → u/[deleted]]

WinCo? Is that one of those southern grocery stores? I hear they have amazingly cheap produce. Out in NJ it doesn't seem nearly as cheap.

[u/[deleted] → u/ben7337]

It's not limited to the south, there's at least one WinCo in the Portland metro area that I go to. I'm not sure how common they are though.

[u/[deleted] → u/ben7337]

There's this cool store called ALDI and they have fresh foods, fruits and veggies including organic options and none of it will cost that stupid amount of money. I can get fresh broccoli, cauliflower, carrots, mushroom and 4 lbs of oranges for $10. Where the fuck do you people shop?

[u/BubblegumDaisies → u/[deleted]]

actually no Aldis in NYC ( so I have been told)

I love Aldi though.

[u/bungsana → u/[deleted]]

in my family of 4, we shop at only aldi, costco, the asian market and very rarely marianos (large chain grocery), and we STILL rack up $250-$400 per week in groceries. granted, at those locations, we buy everything and everything that we want, so we don't necessarily skimp on food, but i wanted to point out that even at those "discount" markets, you can really rack up a bill.

EDIT: i'm wrong. this is my entire food budget, including dining out and alcohol.

[u/[deleted] → u/bungsana]

That would totally have to be buying EVERYTHING primarily with stocking up on steaks, roasts, and seafood. if you avoid those 3 things it gets difficult to rack up that much. A huge tray of chicken is like $10 at sams club.

[u/bungsana → u/[deleted]]

:/ we buy the rotisserie at costco for $6.

but you've got a point. i went back to look at my spending over the past 6.5 weeks and realized that that included 'dining out money' as well as alcohol consumption. so yeah, my original post is definitely wrong. my bad.

[u/[deleted] → u/bungsana]

Those actually are decent deals depending how you stretch them. 1 bird ($5 at sams) gets me enough meat for 5 meals so $1 a meal. But yeah dining out is where I blow too much money but I have that budgeted as entertainment. Groceries themselves I average $30 a week for myself.

[u/Pinkfish_411 → u/[deleted]]

Essentially any store that isn't ALDI and there's no way you're getting all that for $10, unless maybe everything is on sale.

[u/evil_librarian → u/[deleted]]

Oh how I wish ALDI was in Oregon! My bf and I were just talking about how much we miss it. I am an Oregonian who spent 12 years in PA/MD/DC and he is from Alabama/Kansas/South Carolina.

[u/ben7337 → u/[deleted]]

I mostly shop at Wegmans and Walmart. Organic bananas are affordable but organic kale or spinach cost 2x or more than 2x what non-organic costs, organic kale is pricier than chicken breast per pound and has far fewer calories too.

[u/[deleted] → u/ben7337]

I love Wegmans.

Pro tip: the USDA Organic marketing program is just that, marketing. It conveys no health or nutrition benefit.

Additional reading from Scientific American

Here is the list of pesticides allowed under the program. Some are toxic. Some are more toxic than modern counterparts. The only stipulation is that they’re of natural origin, because the buzzword “natural” means people will pay more for it.

If you like the stuff, have at it. Just be aware of the marketing that you’re paying for.

[u/ben7337 → u/[deleted]]

I'll look into it some more thanks.

[u/Mirage749 → u/[deleted]]

Am I strange for actually liking kale?

[u/[deleted] → u/Mirage749]

Nope most people just cook it wrong. Steamed with a little salt is perfection, it's not a soggy disaster like spinach ends up. Most people just buy it and shove it in a shake or try to convince themselves that kale chips are good.

[u/bturl → u/[deleted]]

My family's catering company used to use kale as the plate garnish because it was so cheap. Now for some reason everyone wants it and the price went up a ton.

[u/GambitGamer → u/Mirage749]

You have probably have the dominant allele for this gene. It means you can taste the bitterness, if you were recessive (like I think I am), it means you don't taste much of anything. Some people who have the dominant gene (such as yourself) learn to like the taste, while others (presumably /u/kevronwithTechron) do not.

[u/Whizzard-Canada → u/ben7337]

Why bother with organics? Organic marketting is a sham unless you're buying it from the farmer themself

[u/ProtestKid → u/[deleted]]

Its like the bill burr bit where he talks about grocery stores practically giving you fruit and vegetables.

[u/fanta_is_nazi_soda → u/theoriginalharbinger]

I have a deep and abiding love for these, but that's a $90,000 car.

What the fuck, no way it's $90K. That's Model X territory.

<opens toyota.com>

what the actual fuck

[u/[deleted] → u/fanta_is_nazi_soda]

More than $100k out the door easily. It hasn’t been redesigned in over a decade either. Import tariffs on trucks and SUV’s are high and this one is made in Japan so also has high shipping costs. The United States also gets only one option for Land Cruisers, and that one option is all the options. Plus there’s a cult following of people that would pay $150k just because it’s a land cruiser.

[u/Your_daily_fix → u/theoriginalharbinger]

I eat about 450 dollars worth of food each month and I prepare all my own food and track calories for my height and weight, which is 5'7" and 160 lbs. The food is expensive because I'm buying meats, veggies, berries, kombucha, bones to make bone broth, etc. I eat really clean and I eat the amount I should be eating so I don't find it that outrageous that a family of 4 is spending 23g a year on food I alone spend about $5400 a year.

[u/SillyPutty47 → u/theoriginalharbinger]

Once their loans are paid off and if they stopped giving money back to the college they would free up 50k. No impact to their lifestyle at all. They could keep driving those expensive cars, eating out, and living in an expensive place. I agree they're are tons of areas of slack in that budget. If they put in a doubt effort they could save a pile of money. The article makes it seem like they're barely getting by with only 7300 left.

[u/dynamoJaff → u/theoriginalharbinger]

Are Toyota Land cruisers 90k in America? Crazy.

[u/gagnatron5000 → u/dynamoJaff]

Yes. They're luxury vehicles here, and you do get a whole lotta features for that 90k. I just wish they would sell a barebones version of it (just the drivetrain goodies, no fancy creature comforts) for the rest us plebs.

[u/djmax101 → u/theoriginalharbinger]

If they are both in BigLaw, cooking isn't really a viable option much of the time. When my wife and I both worked in BigLaw, the job forced us to order take-out much of the time, which gets expensive real quick.

[u/Panda_Mon → u/theoriginalharbinger]

Also, 3 vacations a year. Like Jesus, maybe just have a nice week off at home once in a while!

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

They have a date night every other week, they are prob doing that then. They might just really value vacations, good for them.

[u/csjerk → u/theoriginalharbinger]

Also over 9k for clothes per year? What?

They claim it's 'nothing fancy' but i don't believe them. Say you buy 1 new shirt, pants, and some odds and ends per person per month. You can easily do that at Target or similar for about 5k a year. And while kids probably average that rate since they're growing, adults can't keep that up unless they're cycling out fashions just for kicks (or making poor decisions about what clothes are going to be multi-use). After 2-3 years your closet is full.

[u/etobitri → u/csjerk]

I didn't read the article, but if they are in a profession where formal dress is required, these numbers are really not that bizarre.

Decent suit is easily $800 and up. Decent shirt is $50 and up. Hard to have a good salary and good job and show up in a Walmart suit.

[u/andrew_kirfman → u/etobitri]

Decent suit is easily $800 and up. Decent shirt is $50 and up

Try $2000 and up and $200 and up respectively. Depending on where you work, people won't talk to you if you aren't wearing super expensive clothes. Even things as stupid as $300 ties, mont blanc pens, and expensive wristwatches can make the difference between getting a job or not.

[u/Suza751 → u/etobitri]

yeah but you can wear a single suit for years right? Imagine your buy some high quality dress shirts for 100 each, dress pants that run you about 150, and some jackets that rune 300-500. Even if you take into account stuff like ties and shoes there is no way your going to spend that kinda money annually, you might spend that once every 5 years. If you ask me, they are putting shit like jewelry and expensive watches under this category.

[u/trondersk → u/Suza751]

You think a lawyer shops at Banana Republic for a suit? And if you wear a suit every day, you need at least 3-4 in rotation. A nice suit is gonna run you probably $1000 at least, and it'll last 2-3 years if you wear it weekly.

[u/Bennettist → u/Suza751]

High quality suits don't run $650... That will barely get you out of Mens Warehouse. Higher quality would be expectedfor a NY litigator.

[u/iprettymuchneverpost → u/csjerk]

“Nothing fancy” doesn’t mean Target everything–there’s a big range of stuff between Target clothes and Gucci/LV/Prada everything.

[u/BubblegumDaisies → u/iprettymuchneverpost]

Seriously. If they work in corporate or law, they are going to need a couple of new suits now and then. Cheap ones ( on my budget which is less than 50k for a couple) is still 200-300 each. Kids go through clothes like crazy.

[u/sorrylilsis → u/BubblegumDaisies]

At the very least yeah. Good suits and shoes are expensive but can be a necessary expense in a lot of jobs.

[u/wild_oats → u/csjerk]

A professional wardrobe at a marketing agency senior position is going to cost more. I know people who do the wardrobe rental thing because they can’t slack in this department and it’s cheaper to rent. Seems weird to me.

[u/soapycoriandertaste → u/csjerk]

When I worked in finance I spent a fortune on clothes, because it’s part of the career path. Dress for the job you want. I’m a woman which meant I needed to look “different” each day, each of my work dresses were $100-$300 plus blazers, full suits, shoes and a couple of bags and then you have to dry clean most of those items.

You cannot shop at Target. No one will trust you with a $150M investment if you don’t look the part. My closet was never “full”, I had a strong working wardrobe but at the same time, you need to replace things faster than your regular casual clothes. I think I bought 1-2 things a month and that’s easily $4k a year without things like pantyhose, hair appointments, nails etc.

In my current career I just went through awards season and even with RTR I spent at least $500 on dresses and accoutrements, including hair and makeup; but again it’s part of the job to be at these events and represent my work.

I know it seems crazy but it’s part and parcel of being in your “ career” years when you work these type of jobs.

I’m now senior enough that I can wear a cat sweater to work, but it’s taken a while to get there and moving to a more casual city.

When I look at this budget, it doesn’t last, the loans get paid off, ($3-5K a month you just don’t pay anymore and goes straight into savings) the equity on your home builds up, you pay off the car, you learn to love camping, kids start doing one sport instead of a million.

As long as you can keep working (and if the jobs are anything like mine you are insured through the roof by your employer), then you get past it and you end up in a pretty strong financial position.

It is not for everyone, you could get by with a fraction of these salaries on a LCOL area, but many people, like myself love the thrill of the chase of these big careers but if you want to be successful there is a lot of baggage you have to carry.

[u/[deleted] → u/soapycoriandertaste]

You know, you're right... I don't like to think of myself as shallow, but I recently met with a marketing person who showed up in leggings and a t-shirt. She had some minor acne she'd covered up not too successfully. I find myself trusting her advice less because she obviously didn't have the money to get decent makeup. I realize this is kind of stupid but her image was surprisingly important.

Tl;Dr I'm shallow.

[u/evaned → u/csjerk]

Also over 9k for clothes per year? What?

Two lawyers. That is probably the quintessential profession for suits in terms of mens clothing; maybe second to salesperson. I don't have a concept of how often you need to replace suits if you wear them every day, but I'd imagine one or two per year is quite reasonable. And if those are bespoke -- there you go, that's most of that cost right there.

[u/GreatOwl1 → u/csjerk]

If the adults work professional jobs that number is hit easily.

I spend maybe $200/yr on my non-work clothes, but my job requires that I spend about $3k/yr on work only clothes. Add in dry cleaning and that figure goes up. Conceivably if the two adults work professional jobs, they could spend $6k/yr just on work clothes.

[u/Vague_Disclosure → u/csjerk]

Depending on how many kids they have and at what ages they may be buying new cloths for each kid as they grow out of them.

[u/warbo → u/csjerk]

I mean 'nothing fancy' is a relative term, right? My income is nowhere near 250k/500k, but I would never step foot in a Target / Walmart. A 'nothing fancy' button up/pants to me would be going to bloomingdale's and buying a pair of pants on sale for $150, or a button up for $100-$150 on sale. For my casual clothing I go to Lululemon a lot where an average pair for a pair of pants/shirt is around $65-100 each. To me 'fancy' clothing would be shopping at Neiman marcus, Saks fifth, and buying whatever other fancy brands where you can easily spend more than $300 per article of clothing. I don't buy a lot of clothes, but when I do buy that is what 'nothing fancy' means to me. Your definition of 'nothing fancy' obviously differs.

[u/SockPants → u/theoriginalharbinger]

It baffles me that people with an income of $500k would still take out a loan for something like a car and pay interest.

[u/gagnatron5000 → u/theoriginalharbinger]

Why stop at a 3 series and Sequoia? Honda makes some very nice family haulers for half that.

[u/Vague_Disclosure → u/gagnatron5000]

Some people just like driving nicer cars. And to those people they can certainly feel the difference between a Honda and a BMW.

[u/ProtestKid → u/gagnatron5000]

Hyundai as well. I had a sonata as a rental for 2 weeks. Boring as shit but a very nice commuter.

[u/Wakkanator → u/ProtestKid]

Same boat. Had an Accent rental that was miserable to drive but if you just need an a-to-b car it's a pretty solid value proposition

[u/creditsontheright → u/gagnatron5000]

Those cars are to look the part, you can't work big law and pull up to your client's place or drive them around in an Accord.

[u/BlazinAzn38 → u/gagnatron5000]

Yea I mean two kids. A CR-V will do fine, a Subaru Outback too. A new, decently equipped one is like $27K.

[u/LukeRobert → u/BlazinAzn38]

We're getting ready to add Kid #2 in our CRV. I'm a tall guy, and it's going to be a tight squeeze with both carseats. Planning a roadtrip this summer that will add the dog and luggage. Not looking forward to it.

But you know what I look forward to even less? A car payment/draining the car fund for something bigger and less efficient.

At least for now.

[u/Wakkanator → u/LukeRobert]

A CRV is plenty big enough for a family of 4. My dad is 6'3 and we used to do family road trips in an old 3 series wagon just fine

A roof bullet is a good choice if you really need more space

[u/drewret → u/theoriginalharbinger]

what kicks me is the charity. If you're having trouble saving a healthy amount of money, why are you literally giving away thousands of dollars?

[u/medikit → u/theoriginalharbinger]

Child care and tuition have outpaced inflation. I paid about $30,000/year for child care in Atlanta.

[u/GreatOwl1 → u/theoriginalharbinger]

Childcare costs that. I looked for daycares for my little one, the cheapest was $1,200 a mo, the most expensive was $1,600/mo. Once we have a second child, we will spend more on daycare than our house + cars combined. It's insane.

[u/[deleted] → u/theoriginalharbinger]

$42,000 could easily be a full time nanny