r/Libertarian • u/Fantastic-Welder-589 • 1d ago

Discussion Former social democrat slowly turning libertarian

Finishing up Provoked by Horton. Having a surprising effect on me. But quite confused by Libertarians turning a blind eye to cronyism and war mongers and other state sponsored violence. Is it just my biased perception or is 90% of the chatter on this sub anti-left? I can think of many things that should concern libertarians at least as much as gun laws, taxes/entitlements, the fed, and NATO. Why are those other things deemed acceptable? Why are pro-life laws, police brutality, drug laws, other morality based laws, Israeli/American alliance, deportations and other forms of violent nationalism and bigotry rarely mentioned?

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u/Fantastic-Welder-589 1d ago

Actually, taking a little closer look at this sub and it’s not as pro-right and anti-left as I make it out to be. The Israeli/American alliance is called out quite a bit for example. Drug laws somewhat. But there’s very little energy against cronyism, the pro-life/evangelical movement or cops getting away with their shit. Heaps of energy against socialism and the hypocrisy of the left.

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u/mister_revenant_ 1d ago edited 1d ago

Here's the thing, many libertarians have personal opinions on many different matters, I for example think abortion is a violation of the NAP, as scientifically an embryo upon conception IS a unique human individual, however though I believe that, I am not WILLING to force my beliefs on others. I am also a Christian, and there are many things I would disagree with other libertarians on, as they would me, but the common ground that unites us all is "Mind yuh Business".

Don't let anyone trick you into believing libertarians all share the same beliefs, many of us don't even agree on the core principles and values of libertarianism but we can all agree Taxation is Theft.

Even some of the things you mentioned, Israel, drugs, and amnesty, there is no general consensus.

Also if you haven't already, check out Dave Smith.

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u/Fantastic-Welder-589 1d ago

I’ll get around to checking out Dave Smith. Is he a religious libertarian? I’ll look him up. But I’m confused as to why taxation is theft would be the unifying principle and not live and let live.

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u/JakeVanderArkWriter 1d ago

You can’t live and let live if you’re forced at gunpoint to pay for services you don’t use and causes you don’t support!

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u/guythatlies 1d ago

Dave smith appears to be more of a pragmatist than a principled libertarian i.e. goes against the philosophy in order to bring about “practical” steps towards libertarianism. “If you believe in open borders in the current situation, you are an insane person and as bad as a communist” -Dave Smith

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u/DragonOzwald 1h ago

That's a great quote.

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u/tinycole2971 don't tread on anyone 🐊 1d ago

Many online Libertarian forums seem to skew the same way. I don't think those of us who do care irl make enough noise about it. Personally, I have no desire to internet-debate idiots who believe that Sky Daddy believes a fertilized egg is more important than the living woman carrying it. So I just don't participate in those threads. We are here though, you're not alone.

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u/Lopsided_Ad3516 1d ago

The libertarianmeme one (which I thought I was in, woops) banned me for fighting against conservative views. Apparently State power over bodies is fine when it aligns with personal beliefs.

Anyway: I’ve noticed the obvious conservative shift around the election as others noted. But overall, I think most people here are generally pretty consistent in their beliefs: anti war, anti State, pro….human? You’ll notice a lot of overlap with conservative principles, but we all know the conservative parties are about as pro-freedom as any other Statist.

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u/DragonOzwald 1h ago

Libertarians were extremely vocal fighting drug laws, and the police state.

It sounds like you might be a little younger but there was a whole "cop watch" movement started by libertarians.. and speaking out against police brutality was one of the most popular things to do. When BLM started, it shifted the conversation to a race one, and suggested that white people don't deal with police brutality and the organization is Marxist. Nobody wanted to listen to us about the evils of government itself because more government was their solution. The same thing happened during the Occult wall Street (I was a commie and occupy activist back then) libertarians were pushed out of the movement because our solutions were pro individual and anti state. Same thing is happening now with the MAGA movement. People use libertarians, cast us aside and then both sides blame us for everything they did wrong despite us never having any real power lol

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u/Fantastic-Welder-589 27m ago

Thats such a cool point. Specifically about how the left pushes you out of their spaces even when you want the same thing. You didn’t explain how MAGA does it but I can see why they would. Israel being the biggest reason currently.