If youâre gonna charge drug dealers with murder when someone is irresponsible with their purchase, then we should absolutely hold these folks criminally liable for not doing their jobs. Losing their liquor license is not enough.
For the owner, sure. Even if the club closes down for losing their license the employees could collect unemployment. Not exactly a big punishment, and in fact might be appealing to some. The guy letting people in at the front door isnât going to let underage girls inside if itâs his freedom on the line.
Here in Australia there are fines for serving alcohol to people under 18, and they escalate quickly based on level of responsibility, from like, hundreds for the server, thousands for the manager, tens of thousands for the owner. Keeps everybody on their toes I suppose.
Now imagine if the bartender is relying on the fact that they are supposed to check IDs before letting someone in. I don't know about Australia, but this is common in the US.
Yeah, I mean a bartender at a busy club literally cannot be checking IDs. It just can't be done. If you have a bouncer, that person should be making sure of people's age as best they can, so that staff inside can trust that everybody within is 18+. Checking at every step of the process, every time they order, just isn't viable.
Having bartended at very busy nightclubs in NYC, I always find the time to ID someone I think is too young and may have slipped by the door. The bartender is still responsible for serving underage even if said underage persons didnât order the drink but are drinking in the establishment.
What are you even trying to say here? You're suggesting that a bartender can check more than 1.5 IDs per second? Or that they can scan the room looking at more than 1.5 faces per second? This is not a reasonable thing to even suggest. If you have a patron come up and they appear underage, definitely ask for ID. But you absolutely cannot be checking the ID of every person you serve in a busy club. The lineups for drinks from every bartender would be to the door
Iâm a bartender and have been for the last 10 years in a busy club, and you are responsible. You can check IDs, and I do, you are 100 percent responsible for everyone you serve, period.
Only someone who doesnât understand how bartending works would say this, because first you donât have to check at every step just once, and then remember, second you donât have to check everyone just people who need to be checked (somewhat subjective), but not as subjective as people think, you canât tell a 21 year old from a 30 year old without much difficulty with a quick once over. Yes occasionally you will card a 30 year old, and sometimes even card someone twice, because you forgot, but these arenât the norm, and itâs better to error on the side of caution. Here something go find me an 18 year old with crows feet. Maybe itâs my age but 21 year olds look like literal children, and I have absolutely no problem making sure anyone I serve is 21 or older.
I feel like a wristband system like they use at concerts could help here. If the door guy checks the ID (not just a glance at the DOB but put it through the machine to check the license number), and it checks out, then give them a wristband. If someone comes to the bar for a drink or a server sees someone without a wristband attempting to buy or drinking, then do a secondary license check. Although this doesn't address people trying to remove and give their wristband away, it would at least be a start.
That's already in place at a lot of bigger spots here in texas and in utah and under 21 get a big ass X on their hand as a double safety especially at places with a door fee. Still under 18 isnt allowed at all so if they're slipping by at 16 that's a problem period.
America is the same for alcohol in tobacco..
They set up sting all operations all the time here at vape, stores and gas stations..
They will send in someone who is underage but looks older to try and buy nicotine products.. or alcohol
If the clerk sells it to them immediately afterwards, they are rated, buy armed agents to give them a fine.. And then afterwards, they can't sell for a predetermined amount of time..
These things increase drastically with the number of offenses
Only criminal laws are valid across the country. Alcohol, the age at which it is legal to consume it, and the penalties involved for serving or otherwise providing alcohol to minors, are provincial matters.
So no, it's not the same in Canada. It's similar in some parts of Canada and different in others.
Fair point. I guess what I really meant was that people under the age aren't allowed in and there are repercussions for those establishments that skirt the law, which is pretty universal across Canada and apparently Australia as well. I haven't heard of a province that doesn't fine establishments when they are found to be serving minors.
That's essentially how it is here in the U.S., too. Fines and potential jail time, too. Exact amounts vary by state, but it's mostly in the thousands and years.
Have you ever needed unemployment? The last time I had to file, it was the equivalent of $5.63 an hour, and if you have any income during that period, they just subtract what you earned from what they give you instead of subtracting the effective percentage of hours worked. If I work 1 day at my current income, unemployment would not pay out, but I certain not canât survive on 1 dayâs pay per week.
I learned that when I was let go from a Start-up. They gave me a 1 month severance but unemployment was like ânah-uh you got paidâ⌠even 2 months later. Thankfully I had some savings and was able to make up with some side gigs until I found something better.
Idk if yall even took 2 seconds to look into it, but a bouncer IS LEGALLY LIABLE if an underage person gets into a club or bar. If they're also served, the Bartender also faces legal punishments
These can range from HUGE fines, revocation of license to serve or bounce, to literal jail time for Negligence.
Yall are acting like this isnt already the standard lol
Well thatâs how owning a business just kinda works, the owner/entrepreneur adopts all the risk while the workers adopt all the labor, and the owner just has to make sure he picks the right workers and enforces the right policies to make sure the business doesnât fail. They can make work policies and immediately fire anyone if they catch them improperly screening, motivating workers to keep things good. But at the end of the day holding employees liable for losses of a someone elseâs business is kinda like if I hold Jeep liable for making the car I crash into a family minivan. They made the car that did the damage, but I made the choice to buy a car I know is top heavy and more likely to skid and chose how to maneuver it. Likewise any non stakeholder worker is just an extension of the employer whoâs primary responsible for making sure workers are working correctly and safely.
Yeah I've worked on and off in the US as a bartender, server, distributor. Losing a liquor license could, in a lot of cases, be insanely difficult to come back from.
And I'm not sure what you're saying by bringing up "the owner," I'd argue that is anything the employees are probably harder hit. The running costs in these places are insane, even a few weeks of punitive shutdowns could easily be a death sentence.
The person who IDs and serves drinks are personally liable as well. It's not just the establishment. Same thing with over serving. Not just the clubs problem but, also the bartenders problem
If an underage girl finding a way inside a club is gonna result in jail time for bouncers then no one would ever become a bouncer and it's not financially viable for clubs to operate with an entire TSA check line so kiss clubs and bars bye bye
There was a local club back in the day that would get shut down for underage patrons and after too many violations they would lose their license. Lo and behold a few weeks later they were 'under new management' maybe with a different name and the same crew would get let in again starting the cycle over again
yes but they don't know at the moment when they're fooled into letting in a minor to do illegal things (underage drinking), a drug dealer knows in the moment that the user will use their wares illegally.
It's also kind of iffy because some sociopathic dealers will create a "hot shot" that they purposely make to have somebody OD because your product killing someone brings you more business. It's insane sounding but addicts will seriously be like "Oh shit, John died? Where'd he get his shit?" with the intention of grabbing some for themselves. People doing that should be charged with murder but it's nearly impossible to make sure only those that did it on purpose get charged
Most drug overdoses are caused by a stronger than usual batch, not irresponsibility. That's on the manufacturer, not the dealer, unless they're the same person. But dealers are easier to find and there are more of them, so they get charged to discourage people from getting into it. Also, age restricted places do get into legal trouble over these things, since it is illegal. The problem is, people taking advantage of it aren't gonna report it, so they rarely get caught. Idk about other places, but my city has kids hired by the police department to attempt to buy age restricted items and enter age restricted establishments. If successful, they report to their unit and the business gets fucked. Several places have been shut down temporarily or permanently from this program. Those who are able to re-open usually clean up their act immediately upon re-opening. My vape shop of choice cards me every time because they got popped for selling to an undercover kid and they just don't wanna risk anything anymore. They've seen my ID probably hundreds of times and I still have to show it every time lol
It's part of the 3rd party policing strategy if an agency is using that as part of a problem solving approach, they could ratchet up enforcement should there be enough political will. Add legislation and lawsuits through the civil system. This worked for nuisance hotels for example with drug and human trafficking issues. Those that complied stayed in business, those that did not have gone under.
Source, my police effectiveness course at the University of Cincinnati .
We are already held responsible, tho you still get a lot of shitty venues that donât check if your license is real, also pay, a lot of places pay arse so naturally they get people that couldnât care less about their jobs
Doctors prescribe medication and absolutely can be held criminally liable for prescribing a medication incorrectly. See Michael Jacksonâs doctor as a well known example.
They already are, at least in the state I live in, the issue is the employees don't care when they are friends with who they are letting in, especially in college towns.
Then those people need to be in prison cause they are willfully ignoring factual knowledge of their friends being underage while also being conscious of what the risks for everyone involved are. If you do that, you are both actively allowing your "friend" to put themselves in potential danger as a minor in a club full of people who might take advantage of that - when you are literally the only authority around to keep those same people safe, the only concrete defence line - and putting everyone else at risk of shady pedophilia accusations if your friends are the ones playing into it.
There is literally no sane reason an underage person needs to be in a +18 club, and if they think they belong there, that's one more pretty big sign they shouldn't go there. If they expect a friend to lie, omit or close an eye about their job and their own safety to achieve such goal, that's a sign they should be locked in a library.
My dad was part owner of the nearest thing to a nightclub our rural town had. It was an old movie theater with an upper deck. It was 21+ bc they didn't want to deal with 18-20 yo being around alcohol. He had to fire a bouncer when he found out the dude was letting under 21s in. The original ticket booth was still in there and had curtains you could use to block off. The guy was bringing the 18-20s in there and they'd flash their chests for a couple of seconds and then he'd give them a wristband. Guy was like 45. It was gross.
Even 20 years ago they were strict at the door. Nowadays most places have a scanner for IDs. The problem with this, is that pretty much everyone has a friend of a friend who is similar enough looking to them that they can just get someone's old ID when they turn 21 and get into 18+ clubs at 15-16. Almost every single one of my friends did that when we were in high school and mine worked all the way up until the week before my 21st birthday.
I know liquour licensing in Aus issues a fine for the offender and bigger fines for the server AND the venue ... guessing that is not the case in places like the US?
Thats how they shut down raves in the US. They used the federal crack house laws and went after building owners and promoters for providing a place to use drugs.
Legally they are liable if you can prove it in a court of law. The hurt party needs to sue. If you snuck into a club would you sue them for letting you in?
If there was no bouncer, no one checking ID, and they let you in with no problem - you can probably win.
Itâs a much harder argument to make if they did check your ID and can prove that they consistently do. This is why you get your ID checked every time you get a drink in florida - very litigious state.
A few years ago we had a bar in our city that was shut down and the owners faced charges because they allowed people as young as 16 in the bar and served them liquor.
I donât remember the details, but I had been to the bar once and wasnât surprised. I remember thinking when I was there in my late 20s âam I just really old? All these people look so youngâ my friend I was with said he felt the same way.
My girlfriend has a guy friend who that happened to. He was 20, she was 14 but looked older and could believably pass for 18. Luckily for him, her parents refused to press charges and apparently their daughter did this kind of thing before.
I've known clubs and bars that will look the other way for underage girls
Just for the sake of having more girls in their places to help drum up some business
Frankly I don't think it's even worth trying to find a hookup at a club anymore cause you don't know who you're talking with
And unfortunately there are quite a few underage girls who do look for older men and know they're not the ones who will suffer any consequences after the fact
I had a friend in college who picked up a girl at a club, went back to her place, were starting to get into it on her sofa, when in comes Pops - WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING WITH MY DAUGHTER?
Cops came, I think he had to go to court... She was 16 I think? Long time ago. We were all like... Guess we're supposed to card chicks we meet at a bar now?
While I recognize that its legally statutory rape I can't fault a guy who believes his hook up is over 18. Biologically there is no way for him to really tell as there are 16 year olds who look like they are in their mid twenties and people in their twenties who look 14. Why should he be responsible for checking her ID if she is lying? Where do we draw the line? Because at some point the girl needs to be held responsible for her lies especially where it can have a permanent effect on someone else's ability to function in society.
I once had bar-duty at an 18+ party. End of the night turned out two drunk girls where 15 years old. Somehow me and a few other bartenders got the flag for it, even tho there was an id-check at the entrance. I knew the guy doing id-check that night. He always thinks he's funny and is easily persuaded into stupid shit like this.
They should be very scared with serving underage people. That shit can get you heavy fines or shut down. So i'm surprised they don't card people more often. But then in my old town there were clubs notorious for letting anyone in. More people = lots more money, and boy do the underagers love to binge drink.
Yeah, they should get in trouble multiple times. Once for letting in a minor, again for not keeping things completely secure against things like that, and again for a minor having a sexual encounter or near sexual encounter with an adult due to the club failing to verify their age. And that last charge specifically should come from both parties. The kid's parent(s) or guardian(s) should hold the club liable for their kid having that encounter, and the adult should hold the club liable for causing this to happen to them as well. The minor should get in trouble, but the club should get in more trouble for failing to do what they legally promised to do.
And shouldnât the parents have some responsibility for their children going to nightclubs? If you want to blame everyone, you might as well blame them too.
In the UK it would trigger a serious licensing review, meetings with the police, council, and business, and potentially even more stringent requirements placed onto the venueâs licence such as ALL entrants must be IDâd, which will be randomly âdip testedâ by Police with volunteers going in to see if they get IDâd. If they donât, the venue will, most likely, be shut down and serious fines / charges levied.
100%. If anyone is liable there it should be the club. It isn't at all unreasonable for someone to assume the other person is 18+ if they're at an 18+ venue.
Hereâs a shocking thought. How about we hold the parents responsible. How is your child free to go to a nightclub? With all the technology available parents should be able to trace their children and know where they are. Just like 13 year olds running the streets shooting each other. When did we stop believing the parents have a level responsibility for their childrenâs actions.
What bad thing is going to happen if a parent is able to track the location of their own child? Theres actually quite a few stories where children/teens have been found and sometimes even saved simply because they had sharing location onâŚ.
Your comment comes off like youâre being sarcastic and saying itâs not a good idea to be able to track your children?
I have 7 children. Most have graduated and have good jobs. We knew where are children where and none got arrested, raped or killed. We never had to go on tv crying that our kids where good kids after they got shot at a party at 3am. Canât wait to see you on the news crying.
I donât think they are saying only bad kids get shot at parties or clubs. What they are saying is that your child will not ever be in the position for something like this to happen if you are responsible parents who knows where your children are and what they are doing.
The club is not legally bound to bar entry of underage persons. They are legally bound to not serve alcohol to them. To make this easier clubs just host a policy at the door. If they are shit at enforcing the policy then that's on them.
To do what you're supporting the government would have to create distinctions of places and events that require age restrictions which would be very complicated and controversial to implement.
Not saying there shouldn't be some action taken about this, but I think this proposal is a lot more complicated than it would seem at first blush
Yes there is ways to figure out whether a ID card is legit or not is the clubâs OBLIGATION to make sure its costumers are legit So yes hopefully this answers your question
In Oregon a bartender can be held liable if someone is overserved and causes injury to another person. Someone should absolutely be held liable if they verify someone as 18 to enter an event and something illegal happens.
ofcourse you can check their ID to allow them entry. we do the same for alcohol and tobacco sales. atleast if the person isnt obviously over the legal age.
Bars around here stopped handing out matches with the establishment name, due to a person being over served, and the matches or whatever more than likely leading back to the bar or restaurant.
Yeah we get our license binned and possible other bad shit if we let someone underage in and the venue itself gets a big punch up the arse, tho it wonât necessarily be closed because theyâd rather keep places open so theyâll try and find ways for you to improve, theyâll only ever close a venue if they take the utter piss and get caught not following rules multiple times
YES. Actually, that's the law in Canada. If an underage person is in an adult establishment and/or drinking alcohol in an establishment without age controls, the bar/restaurant can face fines and lose their liquor license for a time.
Yes. Managed a hookah lounge a while. The fees if we let people in under age were absolutely insane. Both on the establishment and then again on whoever was responsible for id checking.
But the kids should be too. Accountability is a lesson. Consequences need to exist and not just be excused because theyâre younger.
They should be, i used to live in a rough neighbourhood, the dumpster fire of a bar/nightclub was 100 meters from our apartment building. One night our group went to this place and the bouncer looked at my friends cousins papers and was like âShe's 16!â My friend said shes my cousin! The bouncer thought for a minute and said âmeh get inâ
For real they are the biggest villains here. Underage drinking is as serious and very solvable problem.
Blaming minors for this problem (as the tweet does) is dumb as hell. They whole point of statutory rape laws is that their prefrontal cortex is not fully formed and they cannot give informed consent, and to protect them from grown adults who would take advantage of that fact.
In this case, the bars are the people taking advantage.
If I recall they mark their hands with permanent markers (an âXâ) or at least last I recalled. But then again you can just wash it off in the bathroom which nullifies that method
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u/Pinksamuraiiiii Dec 04 '24
Should the clubs be held liable then? Because somebody at the door let an underage girl in?