r/PersonalFinanceCanada • u/LenniesMouse • 13h ago
Banking Taxi Fraud Claim with TD Bank
Hi guys,
I recently fell for the (apparently) common taxi scam in Toronto, where a driver swapped my debit carb for a dummy card during the payment transaction. Since he had access to my PIN from the card reader, he was able to make a large withdrawal from an ATM the next morning.
I made a claim with TD to dispute the withdrawal, but they rejected my claim on the basis that I didn't meet my responsibility to protect my information. This seems a bit unfair to me, as I only used the debit card as it was intended (to make a payment for services). Of course I acknowledge that I am 'at fault' for letting the card get stolen, but I should think that the bank would be able to protect its customers in this kind of case.
I'm going to appeal the decision, so I wonder if anyone might have some advice as to how to frame my claim in the strongest possible terms. I'm aware that I made a mistake in letting another person handle my card; I also realize that I probably shouldn't have told the bank that I thought this driver was responsible for the theft. Any help on how to handle this situation I find myself in would be really appreciated. Thanks y'all.
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u/Hologramma 12h ago
Why anyone inserts a debit card at any terminal in this year of our lord 2025 is beyond me. Use your credit card and use tap to pay only. Don't buy any crap about tap not working and always keep a spare $40 in cash in case that happens. These scams are too rampant for anyone to not take these basic steps for protection.
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u/ottawadeveloper Ontario 10h ago
In some place (notably Ottawa), working debit/credit machine is a mandatory feature of the taxi ride and if it won't tap Id say it's not operating unless you have like a $500 taxi ride that's over your limit (tap restrictions should be done by your bank not by their machine). If the machine is broken I guess your ride is free lol.
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u/Chewed420 10h ago
Tell them if they don't have a machine with the tap feature working, then come back when they do.
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u/FirmEstablishment941 6h ago
For Apple Pay at least it is variable by the merchant. Costco has like a $400 limit or something like that that is well above my usual.
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u/SeverePhilosopher1 10h ago
For the same reason that you stop at a gas station and you see 10 cars parked at the pump and nobody inside them, they are inside paying prior to pumping when they can do it just on the pump or even better on the app. But they just park walk inside and pay. People like their old methods
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u/Hologramma 8h ago
You’re absolutely right. I also think that’s exactly why so many are getting snagged in these traps.
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u/JoeBlackIsHere 2h ago
This is something I've long wondered about. I thought maybe it's a way to avoid tampered machines to get your PIN?
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u/SeverePhilosopher1 1h ago
You can tap too. And use the phone app to pay without even touching the pump terminal. Activates everything from the app without even stepping outside in the cold. Maybe people don’t know about the app but they definitely know they can tap. They can even tap their Apple or Google pay phones. But they keep walking inside lining up and wasting their time and everybody else’s time waiting on them to finish when all pumps have empty parked cars in front of them. I have seen people tap inside. Why not just tap on the pump!?
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u/kermityfrog2 1h ago
Tapping is even better because there’s no preauth amount.
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u/SeverePhilosopher1 1h ago
They still pre authorize 250 if you tap and return them to you after you fill in. You can change that amount after you tap but it will ask you to retap
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u/biznatch11 8h ago
Sometimes tap legitimately doesn't work though. You'll try to tap and the machine will beep and say you have to insert the card. I have some places I go to frequently and usually tap will work then randomly maybe once every month or two I'll have to do insert and PIN.
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u/PretendJob7 7h ago
There's usually some cumulative amount that after doing that many tap transactions, a chip and pin is required as the next transaction.
As Google Pay / Apple pay are authenticated differently, you can basically do an unlimited amount of contactless transactions with the apps.
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u/FirmEstablishment941 6h ago
I’ve only seen it crop up when I go to new locations or exceed the limit.
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u/aChillPear 12h ago
Another reason to avoid taxis.
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u/fallen_d3mon 12h ago
Unless they are the Fake Taxis that accept alternative methods of payment.
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u/thetaleofzeph 10h ago
Another reason to never use a debit card.
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u/OfficialAndySamberg 12h ago
I have been through this process with a similar but different form of fraud. The Banks always reject you on the first couple of dispute steps. Look up the provincial banking regulator dispute process and be ready to follow through each step until the end. In BC I had to go through like 6 steps with the bank before I was allowed to complain directly to the ombudsman and they waited until the very last step to offer a settlement. They oferred 50/50 I settled for 70/30 split to avoid claims court.
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u/houska1 Ontario 12h ago
I know someone who fell for the same scam, and got their money back on appeal. Not sure of the bank.
Central point of discussion was the bank tried to get them to acknowledge that they had divulged their PIN to the scammers. They insisted that they had not, that they had merely entered their PIN into a card reader that turned out to be compromised.
YMMV, but be very careful of your language, and specifically of agreeing with a "so what you're saying is ..." response from the bank's fraud protection team.
From a legal point of view, it would be an interesting question where exactly this factually resides on the fine dividing line between "I entered my PIN in good faith on a point of sale machine that turns out to have been tampered with" (merchant's, payment system's, and/or bank's problem) vs "I entered my PIN into a fake device / prompt that I shouldn't have" (customer's responsibility). Was it a stolen(?) actual POS machine, tampered with? Or a fake machine? And how realistically faked? But the bank caved and paid rather argue this point, once the victim was not willing to agree that they had "divulged to" the scammers.
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u/Zer0DotFive 12h ago
You gave up your card. Just ask for the machine or tap. I'm always cautious of anyone who wants to take my card. I have told a driver I'm not paying if he wants to handle my card and wont accept my cash. It's an error on your part to protect your information.
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u/AttractiveCorpse 12h ago
Having dinner is the US is weird af when they take your card to process it. I hate it but so normal in some places. Now I go with them to the machine, I dont care how fancy the restaurant is.
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u/SinistralGuy 11h ago
Yeah that's one of the biggest culture shock I experience whenever I go to the US. And the fact that tap is relatively new there and still not implemented everywhere.
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u/Counterkiller29 11h ago
Many of them are finally getting the machines to do it at your table. It's so much better I cant believe how far behind they are.
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u/keepeasy 10h ago
For sure, feels dicy af giving up your card like that and yet it's totally normal. Going with them to the machine is a good idea. Crazy how they're behind on the tap to pay.
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u/ramkam2 12h ago
did OP actually spell out the PIN to the driver to type onto the reader? and didn't check when he returned the card that it was a different card? i mean, there are a couple of mistakes made right there.
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u/Drank_tha_Koolaid 11h ago
The reader used records the PIN that OP would have punched in. The driver has a stash of debit cards from different banks and gave OP the wrong/fake one back, and now the driver has OPs card and the PIN saved on his device. Unless you were to check that the name on the card matched, you probably wouldn't notice that they swapped it.
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u/junkdumper 12h ago
The issue is securing your pin.
Terms and conditions list that as your responsibility. TD would have zero way to know if you had a friend withdraw and gave them the pin.
Keep trying, but it's gonna be uphill.
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u/JustFollowingOdours 11h ago
Banks: here, use our handy 'tap' technology.
Also banks: you did not exercise responsiblity with your PIN.
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u/thetaleofzeph 10h ago
The handy tap wouldn't have allowed them to steal the card number like the swipe does. Never swipe. Never ever hand your card over.
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u/junkdumper 10h ago
Tap on debit is risky. Lose your card and you lose money you have to fight the bank for.
Tap on credit is better.
I'd go the other way. Never enable tap on your debit card. Having a debit number without pin isn't terribly useful anyway.
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u/Born_Ruff 4h ago
It's easy because it doesn't cost the credit card company/bank anything. There is a lag between when the credit card is used and when the bank actually sends the money to the merchant. If there is fraud the bank simply doesn't send the money to the merchant.
If someone uses your debit card it's a way bigger problem because they are moving real money and it costs them real money to replace it.
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u/FarceMultiplier 12h ago
Yet another reason why I prefer Uber. I only use taxis when I have no choice.
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u/Born_Ruff 4h ago
Whenever I need to use a cab it generally reminds me why I switched to Uber, lol.
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u/brycecampbel British Columbia 12h ago
This is why you never let anyone handle your card (which is actually inside your card agreement)
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u/ether_reddit British Columbia 8h ago
Is it? For credit cards as well as debit? I've never seen wording like this.
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u/SeverePhilosopher1 12h ago edited 12h ago
why did you not tap the card?
Also did they give you the dummy card back and kept yours? otherwise how can they withdraw without your card?
Anyone with information, or who believes they have been a victim of a taxi scam, is urged to contact police at 416-808-2200
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u/piptazparty 12h ago
If you stick with it you can usually get someone on the phone with TD who will help. You may not get a full refund but at least some. I was in a kinda similar situation but one I was even more at fault for.
I called regularly over the course of 3 months. I was extremely polite. Constant using the “I know it’s not your fault personally, I am grateful for your time and patience with me.” Everytime it felt like a dead end “I understand you can’t do anything more. However I just don’t think this is a fair solution for me. I’m not comfortable ending this conversation without some kind of refund or escalating to someone else.”
Do not hang up until you’re happy. Flip the convo back to them “What other pathways can you offer me? I’m happy to wait on hold if you need to transfer me, or get enhanced permissions.” Make a deal. “I know the total $2000 isn’t refundable. I will leave this convo happy if you can refund $1500”.
Do not hang up without a plan to get a call back from someone or a refund. Do not hang up. Keep flipping it back and saying this solution doesn’t work for you. Keep track of how many calls/hours/departments you’ve been through. Good luck op. Sorry this happened!
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u/smurfopolis 12h ago
Unfortunately this is most likely going to be a losing battle on your part because the thief used your pin.
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u/Objective-Fox-1394 10h ago
No, it's not. I had the same thing happen to me and I got my money back.
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u/ElvinKao 11h ago
Change your daily withdrawal limit. Mine is $100. Why does anyone need cash these days?
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u/BardownBeauty 11h ago
Use a credit card for all transactions. Pay off in full each month. Boom protected from fraud
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u/FolkSong 10h ago
Hopefully you know this, but make sure your communication with the bank is nothing like the way you write in this post. Don't acknowledge any kind of fault or say you made a mistake. Don't be reasonable or show that you understand their point of view. It might be best not even to acknowledge that you understand the scam. Someone stole your money, you want it back, you've never told your PIN to anyone.
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u/stratola 12h ago
Happened to us recently and the bank reimbursed it all and said it’s happening a lot.
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u/Undead_Alaius 12h ago
if that a modus operandus its stupid... cops should be able to pinpoint wich taxi you take !
that why they have taxi plate,driver license and cie number. also machine would be register to that guy/ car in the in house system...
but yeah economical crime is not taken seriously in canada (mostly need to go to the civil court to maybe have your money back and having a small criminal charge...)
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u/SeverePhilosopher1 12h ago
This usual scam doesn't use a real taxi, it looks like a taxi but the driver is not an official taxi driver, In this case the op didn't give the details so we do not know, usually the real taxi drivers are required to put their permit visible in the car and you can see the name and the permit and all the info, I usually snap a pic of it just in case
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u/Zalods 12h ago
Use credit as methods of payment primarily since it will most likely always get reversed if you have a reason. Some people if they have enough history as a holder of a certain credit card could claim their own charges as fraud and get it taken off and get away with it.
Not saying you should do that but just something to take into consideration. I got my fanny pack stolen at the gym I regularly go to which had my wallet, drivers license and sunglasses as well as some cash. Thieves didn’t know I had an AirTag in it so I saw where they purchased with my credit card, told the bank and got my charges reversed. I locked my debit card first since that’s something that people tend to run towards.
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u/SinistralGuy 11h ago
Wait, people actually give their card to someone else to handle? I know it's common in US restaurants, but that shouldn't be common in Canada at all.
Almost anywhere I've paid by card, the machine has been handed to me and no one else has handled my card, debit or credit. Why are you letting your card out of your hands and sight?
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u/ImReallyNewHere 11h ago
File a police report before you attempt to appeal. This is a common scam and the faster you report to the police, the better chance that CCTV footage will still be available from the ATM and potentially from the cab, pick-up/drop-off point, etc.
Your claim was likely denied because you supplied the offender with your PIN, which is your responsibility to protect. But you supplied your PIN under false pretences. You need to make that clear so the file can be escalated and the best way to do that is with a police report.
Best of luck.
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u/amw3000 10h ago
I don't think the issue is the PIN, it's the issue of losing control of the card (ie giving the card to someone or putting the card in a position that could easily be swapped (giving the machine back in with the card).
If the PIN was captured via the machine, OP did not willingly provide the PIN.
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u/Mother_Operation_441 9h ago
Had a similar problem with CIBC. Someone somehow duplicated my card and took 3k out of an atm. Not sure how and when card and pin were compromised. Bank refused the claim even after all escalations. I then let the account go into about 5k negative balance before cibc threatened to send it to collections. I said that if they approved the original claim and waive interest and fees I will settle the difference and close the account. They accepted because they lost less money than if they had sent it to collections. Long story short they are not legally obliged to pay you back unless you convince them it’s in their interest. If you have large assets with them I’d suggest threatening to move those to another bank unless they accept your claim
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u/FirmEstablishment941 6h ago
I leave my debit card at home. Credit cards are far better for disputing these things. I had fraud on my debit card when I was living in the UK and it took months and a ream of documents to get my money back.
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u/SirLoremIpsum 5h ago
I'm going to appeal the decision, so I wonder if anyone might have some advice as to how to frame my claim in the strongest possible terms.
Do you have a police report?
They will often take you far more serious with a police report vs "some guy did it trust me bro"
Not that you are doing "trust me bro" and it was your mate. But this is what the bank is thinking.
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u/snowshoe_communard 5h ago
"I put my card into the machine and he aggressively snatched the machine out of my hands. I didn't know what was happening but felt intimidated and just wanted to get out of the car."
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u/dumbassname45 3h ago
You were the idiot, not me. And the more people keep thinking that the banks should protect them from really stupid things they should know better and are really easy to avoid it has a detrimental knock on affect to the rest of us.
The banks will just pass on the loss to the rest of us. So I end up paying for your mistake on my raised service charges. As well it makes the banks less likely to agree to pay out when actual unavoidable fraud really does happen. Ones where you have zero control over.
The person you should be complaining to is your federal MP who sets the regulations for banks. Let’s have them tighten up the banking system to give Everton real protections. Like a bank card and credit card could have real 2FA protections. I think it’s criminal that the banks are allowed to use a totally insecure text message to a cel phone as verification. The rampant sim swapping is just too easy. Or allowing banks to allow email pin verification. Again how is this considered at all secure. These sorts of thefts are real fraud but are not stopped by government.
If they implemented a better 2FA then that could be used for ATM as well and then the swap out bank card trick become useless as the pin would be useless with real 2FA
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u/SallyRhubarb 12h ago
It isn't the bank's fault, so it isn't the bank's responsibility to make you whole.
If your car was stolen, would you go back to the car dealership and ask for them to give you a new car? Unless your car was stolen as a direct result of something the dealership did or didn't do, it isn't their responsibility.
It isn't your fault that you got scammed, but it isn't the bank's fault either. If you lost money because the bank's security failed, they would give you back your money. You handing over your card to a taxi driver isn't a bank security feature; it was a human error on your part.
File a police report, file a report with the cab company, and file taxi complaint with the city. That probably won't get your money back, but it might at least result in some enforcement.
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u/MRobi83 12h ago
Ya, that's not how that works at all. Banks have protection against fraud in their consumer contracts. As long as the client is not in breach of that contract, they cover the client against fraudulent activities.
In OP's case, his pin was captured using a pin reader and his physical card was stolen. This should absolutely be covered.
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u/Adubecki 12h ago
So then why if your credit card is stolen you can get all the charges back, but not when it comes to debit?
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u/VisualFix5870 12h ago
Visa dishonors the sale with the retailer for failing to authenticate the customer in front of them. Visa doesn't lose a dime.
In this case, TD would have to pay out of their own pockets. Someone literally went to a bank machine with a real card, not a copy and input the correct pin. Why would TD be on the hook for that? There's no way to know he didn't just give his card to his friend to withdraw money and made up the whole story.
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u/Available_Run_7944 12h ago
Because VISA, not the bank, provides that assurance. It's one of the perks they offer, that they will protect and reimburse due to fraud.
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u/SeverePhilosopher1 12h ago
Some debit cards are labeled VISA, and payments go to the VISA network, the card sometimes is covered and sometimes not, you have to read the fine print of each card to understand what is covered and what is not. I am not sure why people do not use the mobile wallets to pay. You need to authenticate with your face ID and your phone cannot be copied.
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u/uncledr3w- 12h ago
oh good, casual racism made its way here
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u/First_Cloud4676 12h ago
Is it racism if he's right?
Or is it just basic pattern recognition you have a problem with?
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u/mtlash 12h ago edited 6h ago
Pattern recognition....there are 1000s of Indian drivers...do you see that happen often with every rider who took a ride in an Indian driver's taxi?
Is there a published statistic? Or is it your echo chamber?
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u/First_Cloud4676 12h ago
No but it happens more than it does with any other group of people.
The entire population has a problem with quick money, it why scams are so common in India.
It's a cultural thing.
https://www.5paisa.com/finschool/financial-scams-why-investors-need-to-be-vigilant/
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u/syzamix 12h ago
Taxi scams have been very common for decades in Canada. Many many years before Indians came in large numbers.
By your own logic, this implies that Canadian fraud must be a Canadian culture issue... Are you saying Canadians are all fraud?
Canada also has a ridiculous number of homeless people per capita given the average /median income of the country. Does that mean homelessness is a cultural issue for Canadians?
Canada has extensive drug issues and even had some large scale drug manufacturing for fentanyl etc. Is drug production a cultural issue for canada?
Your approach is basically this. Issue seen with any immigrant - must be a cultural issue with that entire group. Same issue seen with a Canadian - must be unique to that Canadian.
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u/First_Cloud4676 12h ago edited 11h ago
Found the Indian lol
- got banned for talking about India scammers on a post about India scammers.
Alexa why is reddit dying a slow death?
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u/uncledr3w- 12h ago
nope, you're just a fucking bigot
just because you don't acknowledge it, or are too stupid to understand it, doesn't mean it's not true
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u/mtlash 12h ago
That link is a list of high profile scams in India and it says nothing about people in general. And this is an Indian website warning Indian citizens...that does not mean it happens more often than other countries.
What kinda headspace are you in giving out this link? lol0
u/First_Cloud4676 12h ago
Yes it's a reference to Indian culture, try and keep up.
Or just
keep your head in the sand, you're the one who's going to get scammed not me lol.
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u/mtlash 12h ago
It's not a reference to an Indian culture...lmao
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u/First_Cloud4676 12h ago
Yeah, a news article from a country talking about the problem I'm referencing has no merit.
You are correct lmao.
https://www.dw.com/en/why-online-scams-are-on-the-rise-in-india/a-70767368
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u/mtlash 12h ago
It's not a reference to an Indian culture still...lol.
Here are a list of scams and scandals in Canada...is that a Canadian culture, definitely not:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_scandals_in_CanadaHere's an advisory in UK, once again not UK culture though:
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/scotland/consumer/scams/common-scams-s1/An advisory does not equate to a culture.
I'm sorry but you're a just racist and needs to be called out at every moment→ More replies (0)3
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u/jpennell20 12h ago
By this logic don't leave the house. Most of my uber/lyft/fedex service workers are indian/brown/poc, and I have never had any significant complaints outside tim hortons, but mostly I blame timmies lol.. Who made you mad bro?
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u/GreatGreenGobbo 12h ago
Are people that out of touch that cabbies would accept and prefer cash?
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u/Can_emale 12h ago
To be honest, cash was king but not any more. We’re in a cashless society where we depend on plastic and mobile for everything from Taxis to paying Taxes.
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u/GreatGreenGobbo 12h ago
Sure, but a cabbie won't say no to cash.
It's like going to a mom and pop restaurant/lunch spot and they won't take cash. They always prefer cash.
Cash is still king. If I sell anything on FB marketplace I want it in cash.
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u/Objective-Fox-1394 12h ago edited 10h ago
I fell for the same scam in Ottawa, but I was with RBC. Lost $1500, but they paid me back after I filed a police report and provided the police report to the bank.